Hey, Happy B-day Alba17!!!

OK, I'm scrapping my previous discussion of this because I realized I've been going about it the totally wrong way.(although, it's still posted so you can read it if you're curious.)  Sam isn't a set of character traits. I  keep overlooking what I think to be the biggest part of what makes a person a person, their biggest, overall motivation.

I am basing this on the Enneagram.  While mine is a variation of what you will find when you google it, it is still the same basic principles.

There are 9 basic motivators.  1) To improve yourself and the world  2)to love and be loved 3) to be useful 4)to discover and express your identity 5)to have knowledge and truth 6) to create community and have support 7) to experience 8) to control 9) and to have and create harmony.

Your personality (according to the Enneagram) is based on which one these 9 motivators is MOST  important to you.  Obviously, all 9 are important to everyone, but it's the one that is MOST prevelant in your life.
Sam is a type 3.  Which means, his basic motivation is to be useful.

Which is why he's so hard to figure out.  Because, he's constantly adjusting himself to be who other people need him to be, or rather who he feels other people need him to be, whether or not he succeeds in that.  So, his identity is constantly fluxuating outside of the need to be useful.  That's his biggest character marker.

So, why would he give his father such a hard time if he wants to be useful?

Simple, I think it's just a question of loyalty.  His father and Dean needed different things from him, and basically, Dean won out.

See, Sam, I think, actually got pretty lucky by having Dean be the main nuturing figure in his life (his father being the protective figure) because Dean is a 6- or wants support and community.

Honestly, you see this from Dean all the time.  Despite his "fuck you attitude" that he has towards specific authority figures, community IS very important to him, except he calls it "family".  Family is the most important thing to Dean, because that is community.

So, for Dean, it was very important as a kid (and adult) that he keep his family together.  His father had charged him with taking care of Sam, and damn it, he was going to take care of Sam.
So, basically, what Dean needed from Sam was that Sam be a successful member of the family.  In other words, self-sufficient.  But, Dean also needed Sam to let himself be taken care of.  Dean needed Sam (subconsciously, obviously) to let him take the hits, let him run out and fight the monsters, get dinner, be "the man of the house" while Dad was away, etc... and not hinder him from doing that.

So, basically, from Sam's perspective, the best way he could be useful to Dean was to be self -sufficient/self reliant, but to also let Dean take care of certain things.  So, that pretty much meant Sam needed to be responsible for being a good student, having confidence in himself, duck when Dean said duck, and to actually be a little demanding aka asking Dean for help, etc...

Because that's what Dean needed from Sam. 

Whereas John, well, John needed Sam to be safe-which is not where the conflict is, Dean needed that from him too- but he also needed Sam to be strong.  He needed Sam to be able to take care of himself WITHOUT Dean around.

That's where the conflict is.

And from Sam's POV, Dean needed him more than his Dad.  Dean was the one there for him, his Dad was just the guy who came in and fixed things at the last minute.  He was the cavalry.  And you can't be useful to the calvary.  The calvary saves your ass, there isn't a damn thing you can do for the calvary.

But he could be useful to Dean much easier than his father, and I also think it was more IMPORTAnT for him to be useful to Dean than his father.

But Sam still runs away to Stanford, how did Dean need that?

Well, in a weird way, he did.  It isn't that Dean wanted it, or that Dean knew he needed it-we so rarely do- but I think that Sam was trying to give Dean what he actually needed the most when Dean was in high school, because Sam is perceptive like that.  3's usually are.  That's their thing.  They are very unconciously aware of other's emotional needs.

I think (and this is most obvious in Dream a Little Dream) that Dean's biggest problem regarding identity comes from the fact that he is just actually like his father (as far as taste and likes/dislikes,etc... are concerned) but he doesn't feel any ownership over that identity.  And he doesn't feel ownership over that identity because he nEVER REBELLED.

See, as teenagers, we rebel (and seriously, this comes from my psych minor) partly because we want to discover who we are as people.  It's like a sophisticated version of the terrible twos.  When you are two, you realize that "no"
is a word that you can say and use.  You can tell you're parents "no" and the world will not end, your mommy will not stop loving you, your daddy will not leave you in the woods to brave the elements, whatever. 

For a two year old, this is a huge discovery that you hadn't previously been privvy too.

It's much the same for teenagers.

You realize you can disagree with your parents, teachers are just human and don't have all the answers, authority figures don't have ultimate control over you, you are not your parents despite the many similarities, etc...
And this becomes a painful, awkward journey of self discovery.  And you rebel just to prove to yourself that you can disagree with your parents, that they aren't always right, and you are not them.  Just like when' you're two you say "no" all the time simply because you can.

Except that Dean didn't rebel.

And that's what makes him think he's a hammer.  That he's his father's tool.  Because he never had that phase.

But he needed that phase, and I think a part of Dean knew he needed that phase when he was a teen.  (probably a subconscious part, but it probably showed up in it's own special ways.)  You can see where he does express that need to rebel in AFter School Special.  Except, he's rebelling to confirm his acceptance of his father's lifestyle.  See the problem?  And I think that, despite how close he seems to be to his brother in After School Special, he needed that rebellion from his father that he was never going to act on at the time.

And Sam picked up on that need.

And for Sam, I think that actually translated into actually stopping giving Dean what he needed previously.

Because Dean needed Sam to let him take care of him earlier.

But that was by orders of John.

And Dean needed to know that it was of his own volition that he took care of Sam.

And Dean needed to rebel against that responsibility of taking care of Sam and of hunting.  Of heavy metal and of leather jacket wearing.

But Dean wasn't going to.

So, Sam did it for him.  I think that Sam stopped letting Dean take care of him (again, subconsciously) basically gave Dean space to seek out his identity.  Probably brought home crappy music (cause the show does indicate Sam likes some music Dean does not find acceptable) to let Dean test it.  You know, little unconscious things.  And I think that teacher gave Sam a major route to be useful.  Because Dean needed space.  And Sam needed to be useful to something.  So he decided to become useful to society.  And rebelled where Dean wouldn't, and started being self sufficient enough where Dean could "stop" taking care of him by staying out of hunting
altogether.

And that's how you get Sam going to Stanford.  Because Dean needed Sam to stop being useful to him, Dean needed that independence.  And Sam just can't stop needing to be useful to something.  So, he became useful to society.

It also has lots to do with safety and stuff, but I am talking about very basic, most likely unconscious motivations and actions based on those subconscious/unconscious motivations that you are not likely aware of.

And guess what?  Sam became extremely useful to Stanford and his friends and Jessica.  He was good.  And then the worst thing happened for someone of Sam's personality type.

He Failed.

Jessica died.

And guess what helped fix it?  Guess what the next thing he did was?

Dean gave him a way to be useful.

Dean needed him again.

He had a way to do what is important to someone like Sam to do when he fails.

He was able to both completely destroy anything that reminded him of his failure to Jessica.  (kill the demon)  And he was able to be useful again.

I think the problem is that Sam always did resent Dean a little ever since Dean was a teen for ceasing to need Sam- or rather for needing Sam to give him space.  I honestly think Sam feels super abandoned.
See, Dean was (although young) just old enough to realize that when his mother died, she didn't abandon him.  Sam, well, Sam was too young to even register the concept of death.  As a baby,I'm sorry, but  he's registering Mary's death as abandonment.  And John running around, well, I think BOTH brothers registered that as abandonment.  And Dean needing space in High school, however unconscious, Sam registered that as an abandonment too.  Especially the part where Dean tried to keep the peace, making Sam feel like he was taking John's side over his.

But Dean came back.  And Sam obviously forgave him after a fashion.

But he still felt useless.  Because Dean was over his little high school phase and on and he needed Sam the same way he needed Sam when Sam was a kid.

Dean once again needed Sam to be self sufficent, but not so much that Dean doesn't take the blows, that there isn't room for Dean to take care of him.

And Sam wants to be useful to Dean.

But he still wants to be useful to society too, especially since he's failed it.  And if there's anything Sam can't handle, it's failure.  Failing is probably Sam's biggest fear.  And of course, as you see with their ever comedic squabbling, being useful to the victim's emotional needs when they go on cases and being useful to Dean sometimes contradict. Sam complains about this VERY thing in Scarecrow.  It isn't about Dean "getting in his way" 
it's about Dean treating him "like luggage" as either Sam says or Meg rephrases it (and Sam doesn't deny it, so she wasn't lying if that's the case)  or both.  Because Sam has been through some stuff, and the best way for him to accomplish his three goals in S1-2ish is not easy.  Because his goals are 1) Destroy the things that remind him of his failure 2) Be useful to Dean. 3) Be useful to society by hunting but also to be useful to the victims' he encounters on their cases.

And Dean's needs do get in the way of goal 1 and 3.  Especially if you consider that Sam reminds himself of his own failure.  So, Sam is slightly self destructive.  Please note, that IMO, Dean's most effective speeches to turn Sam around from being sad are when Dean yells at him about Sam's moods' effect on DEAn, on how it hinders Dean.


And I think when Dean died we repeat the process.  Except, that there still is the tiniest, ittsiest, bittsiest chance that killing Lillith might get Dean back from hell.  And so destroying reminders of his failures, which in this case is PRIMARILY himself and Lilith, and being useful to Dean are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY More important than anything else in the world.  Including the human race, Bobby, whatever.Honestly, if Sam knew that killing Lilith= apocalypse while Dean was dead, I honestly think he really wouldn't care even a little.

So, Ruby gives him a way to accomplish both those things.

But when Dean comes back, it actually helps very little.

Because Sam had nothing to do with it.  Yes, that sounds selfish, but I think it was a redeeming thing for Sam, it was very important that HE get Dean out.  not some Angel.

And add to that that later Sam is totally useless in helping getting Dean over hell.  That's another blow. 

Sam is totally useless to Dean the entire 4th season.  And he's trying really, really hard to be useful to him.

BUT Dean is also actively getting in Sam's way of accomplishing his 2nd goal.

Destroying all of the things that remind him of his failures.  Which is primarily himself and Lilith.  

So, there's a lot of good reasons Dean has for getting in Sam's way on these things.  But naturally, Sam's self destructiveness, Dean wants to stop.  And naturally, Sam resents this.  Sam also has to feel a little abandoned by Dean choosing to go to hell, not welching on the deal so that Sam dies (and is useful) instead, despite knowing how much Sam was bothered by it, and having an idea of how it would hurt Sam. 

So, that basically leaves three built up resentments on Sam's part.

1) Dean changing his needs in High School making Sam slightly useless to him at the time.

2) Dean putting him in a position where he couldn't be useful to all the ppl he wanted to be in S1-2

3) Dean stopping him from being destroying reminders of his failures in S4 and not letting him be useful to Dean- or resentment is placed on Dean for Sam's own feelings of failure regarding Dean's death.

4) Dean abandoning him.

5) Dean himself being a reminder of Sam's failure.


So, honestly,  you add all those up, of course Sam is a less than stellar brother in S4, despite the fact that he really is trying to help Dean.  And I think, that honestly, Sam deserves to feel resentment at these things.  Because, being as emotionally sensitive to others' needs as Sam is, and Dean being the person he had primary loyalty to, Sam was nEVER going to be anything other than what Dean made him into.  And of course, Dean needed things subconsciously, so you know, he really can't be blamed.

Which, I think, actually leads us to the main  conflict of S4. 

Sam has every right to resent Dean.

Dean doesn't deserve Sam's resentment.

none of it is actually Dean's fault, and by that I mean, it wasn't really anything Dean Meant to do.  While Dean holds responsibilty, he doesn't hold BLAME.  Because there is a difference.  What Dean raised Sam into is his responsibility, but he was a kid, he did the best he could, and it is a simple and natural cause and effect scenario. 
So, no, Dean doesn't deserve Sam's resentment.  Yet Sam still has the right to resent Dean.  Because what happened to Sam isn't fair either.  And that anger and frustration has to go somewhere.  I think the fighting between the boys was inevitable.  They were each preventing the other from fulfilling their most basic motivations.  Sam's self destructiveness was preventing Dean from having his support system/family, and Dean's need for family was preventing Sam's need to be useful and destroy reminders of his failure.

There really is no one to blame.  This was just the boys acting on their basic needs-things that they have every right to need.  Because, yes, Sam DOES have a right to want reminders of his failures destroyed.  I mean, don't you have a right to rip up a test you failed?  Sam just failed on a much BIGGER scale.  And he doesn't deserve to destroy as much as he did by the end.  And, while ppl have a right to be suicidal, they don't have a right to go through with it due to the ppl they leave behind that it affects.

But it is also unfair to Sam that he never once gets to be useful to Dean.  And this becomes increasingly frustrating to him.  And honestly, it's partly because Dean wouldn't LET Sam be useful to him.  (Wishful Thinking) So, yeah, the fight is no one's fault.    Because they needed things they couldn't get from each other.  Or rather, they are equally to blame, the other person wasn't in a place to give.

Which of course, brings me back to the Mystery of Sam's character.

Like I said, it's so hard to figure, because his main trait is that he wants to be Useful.

And that will change and adapt to his situation and what the emotional needs of others are.

So, yeah.  That's my two cents.  I hoped it made sense and/or gave you a better understanding of Sam Winchester!

Warning: This discusses abuse.  There is nothing too graphic, or really graphic at all, since it's more about political/cultural views of abuse, however, triggers are triggers, and this may trigger those with PTSD or the like due to a history of abuse.

Warning number 2: This has super minor spoilers, were I really wouldn't even consider them spoilers regarding BSG, Buffy, DS9, Torchwood, etc...they are labeled as spoilers in the text followed by a double space so that you may avoid them.  But they are pretty  minor.


So, I responded to this post here: http://originalpuck.livejournal.com/116036.html  and needless to say, it became a very interesting conversation and made me think.  Since we did kind of come to a consensus, I didn't want to clutter their LJ with more stuff from the other person who jumped in.  So, I figured I'd just post it on my LJ and link it if they wanted to read it.

Basically, it was about whether or not an abused!kirk (cannonically or fannonically speaking) (and are those even words?)was a cheap back story.  This, of course, led to a lot of discussion about what is fannon, what is cannon, and assumptions people make,etc... 

If you want to read the beginning of the convo, just go to said link.

But, over the course of the convo, someone said this, " From what you've said, it's not abuse as a plot-line you object to, but that there are many badly written abuse fics (which we all agree there are.) When approaching such a delicate subject as abuse, it's important to be specific in your gripes so you don't inadvertantly offend those you're preaching to."

Me and originalpluck came to an agreement on this point (I think! I felt we did, they may say otherwise!) But, I think that my point here was just that while yeah, you're right, you shouldn't dismiss a whole plot line because of it being badly written, I think that it is a common reaction when things start to become a trend.  A  lot of people are against OCs because no matter how they are labeled, they are so often Mary-Sues.  And while there is nothing wrong with an OC, a lot of ppl are wary (or at least myself and a couple people I know) of those fics because of the probability of the Mary-Sue.  I think it's similar with abuse fics.  Far too often, it IS (unfortunately) just used as an easy back story to create drama.  And so very rarely (and by rarely, I mean I think I've read like 1 fic) where the abuse is dealt with specifically, in a way that isn't just general  beatings. 

But like I said, if there are abuse fics you'd like to rec to me (that goes for anyone reading this LJ!) that do deal with the specificity that writing abuse demands (and, well, anything else really, but that is a totally different rant) I'd love to read it.   

And of course, this is about to inspire me to write my own abuse fic, and if I do, who knows, it may suck, also, in which case....well I don't even know.    And you know, I think ppl should be out there writing fanfic, I clearly write it, and mine isn't always awesome, and sometimes is bad, but still...yeah....I think ya'all catch my drift?

And of course, the point below is the point I really do want to clear up the most.  Because, I know I'm not always the clearest forum writer, and I really, really don't want this to be misunderstood.

"The same thing can be said about abuse-- abuse isn't something that anyone can tell right off, so we are left with the preconceived notion that unless proven otherwise, characters come from a “normal,” “happy” home. This is in part because we are raised to pursue the 'nuclear familly.'

We approach characters in books and movies the same way. Until proven otherwise, a character is heterosexual. Until proven otherwise, a character hasn't been assaulted. And, of course, until proven otherwise, a character hasn't suffered from child abuse"

Before I continue with this, I'd just like to point out to anyone reading this, that there are totally legit argument for Cannon abused!Kirk, such as those OriginalPluck puts forth in post linked towards the top of this entry.  What I'm responding to, and what the above quote is responding to is about a comment I made about SULU in regards to abuse.  

OK, onto my point.  I think  that real life and fiction are very different in this regard of assumptions and abuse.  Or at least, I'm treating them differently in my own head.  Meaning, I personally don't make assumptions/draw conclusions about characters in Fiction the same way I do in real life.  Mostly because I AM PRIVY TO INFORAMTION In FICTION THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO IN REAL LIFE.   In real life, I do not have close ups.  I don't know in real life when I tell someone that their dog died if they cry when I leave the room.  In fiction, I get a close up or a description telling me exactly what emotional reaction a character is having to such news.  I may or may not be privy to such info in real life.

Also, the gay/abuse analogy, I feel isn't the best one.  Especially in the realm of Sci-Fi.  Because, the hope for the future is that if a character is gay, it will have had as much effect on them as a person/character as if a character was straight-in other words, outside of your romantic life-none.  Whereas, it's pretty damn hard, if not impossible, to create/move towards a future wherein abused children are just simply not affected (effected?) by having been abused.  Yes, of course they can get over it, move on, be awesome about having gone through that, whatever, but I feel they can't simply not be affected by it in the same way that gays will hopefully one day not be affected by being gay.  (i.e. no hazing or people giving them a hard time about it and the LGBT community is fully incorporated and no one thinks twice about it when a person is a part of that community.)

So, on to my point.  What I meant when I said that I knew Sulu wasn't abused, is that FIRST, I did mean Cannonically speaking.  I am talking about Cannon.  Subject to change upon the next movie,  I can say with 98 percent certainty that according to Cannon, Sulu was not abused as a child.

It's not that I can spot abused ppl automatically in real life.

It's that Star Trek is Fiction, and writers WILL indicate that kind of back story.

Think of it like a writer.  You are a writer.  You write this character named Bob (yes,like the planet).  You put Bob in a movie about time travel and imploding planets.  While writing this character, you decide that he was abused as a child.  You figure out who abused him, how long he was abused for, why his parent abused him, etc....  OK, SO, you've bothered to come up with all of this back story about Bob.  Why on earth would you not in some way, indicate that to the audience???  Why would you Completely hide that back story you took so much time to come up with from the audience? 

The point is that I'm not assuming these characters aren't abused because it's some kind of default-which actually, especially in sci-fi, it isn't, but because this isn't a random probability.  It's a conditioned probability.  This is a character who is written by another human being who has intentions/an agenda for this character.  If they wanted them abused, they would indicate in some manner to me-the audience- that they were abused. If such a thing isn't indicated, then I'm assuming it isn't true, until it IS indicated, at which point in time cannon changes, and then it's called A Reveal.  (or a plot twist, depending on who you're talking to.)

Because you know what else I assume about these characters (especially in Star Trek XI) until I'm told otherwise?  That they are all not married.  Despite the fact that 60-70 percent of the population (depending on the city, and as of, I believe the 2000 census) IS married, I am assuming that these characters aren't.  Because that is something important enough that the writers/directors/actors would bother to tell me.  I'm also assuming that they don't have kids-unless I"m told otherwise (and in the case of Star Trek, unless TOS cannon indicates differently) because that is also the kind of event a writer would mention.   The list goes on. 

So, it isn't just abuse that I'm making assumptions on.  It's all kinds of life events that- as the history of tv/movie/play viewing as shown me- will be indicated somewhere in the visual text or the written text if it is the case.

"But the statistics don't add up in fiction-- at least 10% of the population is gay, one in three women are sexually assualted in their lifetime, and 4 children die everyday as a result of child abuse. And yet we assume that every character in a book or movie came from a nuclear family unless proven otherwise."

no, statistics don't add up in fiction.  But, statistics don't add up in real life, either.  For instance, 10 percent of the population is gay.  I went to a school in Iowa with 700 kids in my high school-total.  I promise you that 70 of them were not gay, thus fulfilling the 10 percent statistic.  And that includes all of those who came out after graduation.  (what can I say, it's a small-ish town)  It's probably more like 10- and that is almost overestimating.    And in Chelsea, Manhattan, I guarantee you OVER 10 percent of the population of Chelsea is gay. 

Fourteen-Twenty-three percent (round about) of adults in America are illiterate(functionally illiterate, not completely).  I'm an adult in America, 14-23 percent of the people I know aren't illiterate.  This isn't to say that I don't know illiterate people, cause I do, but it doesn't equal the statistic.

10 percent of American Adults (over 20 years, and really 20-60) have diabetes.  But, in my improv class levels 1-3, there are 45 people, but 4 - 5 of them don't have diabetes.  In fact, none of them did.

16 percent of the US has blue eyes.  Guess what, 16 percent of my friends/ppl I work with don't have blue eyes.  In fact, most of the ppl I know have brown or green eyes.  Out of the about 20 ppl I see everyday at both work and my close friends, 3 of them don't have blue eyes.  It's more like Jenna-or 1 person- who has blue eyes.

My point is that statistics are created surrounding a general population-usually a nation,continent, or the world- and don't always count for regional differences and certainly won't be true for Any given group.

Besides, people don't view the world in statistics, they view the world in terms of "majority" and "minority". 

I mean, how many ppl do you actually know named Muhammed despite it being the most common name in the world?  I don't know anyone with the last name Johnson despite it being the second most common last name in America.

If there is a character (like the Janitor) in Scrubs whose name isn't supplied, many Americans are not going to assume the character's name is Muhammed. If they bother to guess at all, they are going to make assumptions based off of the most common name in their lives, like John, or if nick, or whatever.  If Muhammed is the most common name in their life, than sure, they might guess that. 

But it's totally unrealistic to ask writers to make sure that all of their characters match up to statistics exactly.

Also, as I said earlier, which I would like to get back to, "from a happy home" is an odd default to assume on the parts of sci-fi watchers.  Because, more often that not with sci-fi, a show/movie will have at least 1 character who comes from some kind of unhappy home.

 ************************************BSG Spoiler Warning....sort of*****************************************

The biggest example I can think of being both Starbuck And Apollo in BSG as characters who were abused as children.

**************************************DS9 Spoiler....again sort of.******************************************


You also have Garak and Bashir as examples, depending on your defintiion of abuse.  Obviously, with these two, it's mostly emotional, but still....they did not get along with their parents and have major issues in their childhood home lives.

**********************************Buffy:The Vampire Slayer and Angel Spoilers..""*****************************************************************

You have Xander having suffered verbal abuse, Tara suffering some variation of abuse that probably involved hitting given the nature of the episode when we meet her family, Buffy's dad didn't abuse her but he did totally bail on her and her sister-thus neglect, and then there is of course Wesley, who's back story is more told in Angel than Buffy.  Angel seems to have maybe been abused, but that is in a society that condoned it...so.....I don't know how that needs to be counted.

**********************************Star Trek: next gen "spoiler?"****************************************************

In The next Generation, Picard did not get along with his father, and in fact, doesn't want children/doesn't think he's good with children because of it, when he is, I think, one of the most natural father figure characters there is on TV.

*************************************Torchwood Spoilers..."""""****************************************************

And of course, there is indication that Ianto was either actually abused or felt like he was abused as a child by his father.



Oh, and let's not forget about Heroes.  The Show where everyone has daddy issues.



The list goes on. And on another note, If  you do like  to read/watch adult characters who were abused as children (or children being abused, actually)  there are a lot of characters in theater (not musicals necessarily) and plays.  There are more abused characters in plays than there are gay men with AIDS.  (OK, that was a theater joke, no offense is meant)  My point is that I feel abuse/terrible relationships with parents/traumatic childhoods is not overly Underrepresented in Sci-Fi/Fantasy (or SF as neil stephenson calls it). Just like I feel that strong woman are most certainly not underrepresented in SF.  In fact, SF probably is the most likely place to go for those female characters.  Of course, not every SF thing handles it well.  (Star Trek has had a really hard time with it till recently.  But all the TV shows TRIED so hard!)  And whether or not it gets handled well is a different discussion (though an important one).  However, almost all shows, that I can think of,  have at least one character who comes from such a background. (There are probably one or two exceptions, but there are always exceptions to the rule.)  And I'm pretty sure that this even extends to sit coms.  Friends has Phoebe and Scrubs has both Dr. Cox (in the physical abuse category) and Elliot (in the emotional abuse category).  Of course, I don't watch much other TV to know.  Movies also have lots of abused characters, I feel.  Although, that will take some more thinking on my part....and there are a LOT of movies....I'd have to research that percentage.

So, I don't know why it is that "unhappy home" (maybe not abused, like illegally abused, CPS could legally take your kids from you abused, but Certainly  Unhappy, like emotional abuse, neglect, etc...) is considered some kind of  nonexistent character when you DO see it quite often (at least in the fandoms I'm in)fairly often in tv/movies. 

(Of course, you're fandoms may differ.)

But, back to my point, Abuse is Shown quite often, in that the writer/director/actor TELLS/SHOWS the audience that it's part of the back story.  If I'm not being told, I'm assuming it's not cannon.  Just like the million other things I assume aren't cannon unless told otherwise.  Because IMO, that's what cannon is.  Something the movie/tv/book/play TELLS/SHOWS you. 
That doesn't mean you can't go nuts with it in fanfic-by all means have fun, and if you can, try to make it so it is specifc and doesn't suck- but that's just what it is-stuff that's done in fanfic with certain characters, not cannon.


"Because that is what fanfiction is-- it may be romantic dreams, it may be nightmares, it may be a memory we wish to forget. It's a yearning to relate to characters who we otherwise cannot because the world doesn't see us as the 'norm' because we know that, unless explicitly stated otherwise, we don't exist."

I think this is a major assumption on your part about why fanfic exists.  While what you are saying is very poetical and to a certain extent representative of many fanfic readers/writers, it isn't representative of ALL fanfic readers/writers.  So, it is not "what fanfic IS"

For example, myself.   I enjoy fanfic mostly for it's exploration of cannon as opposed to doing stuff not cannon or doing things that make the characters more resemble myself.  Well, and then there's crack fic (like making all the ST characters Moulin Rouge characters) and I can't get enough of that.  But seriously, crack fic.  I mean, it's crack fic.  It's like...well...crack!  :) 

But a large part of the reason I enjoy fanfic is to see other people's feelings on the cannon, or the exploration of things implied by cannon but the wasn't relevant enough to the story for the actual show/book/movie to spend time on.  I mean, one of my favorite genres is hurt/comfort and that's because spending THAT much time on h/c in actual cannon can get irrelevant fast.  But I love to read it, and probably spend way too much of my free time doing so, because it's really letting these characters just focus on being hurt, and the worry/protectiveness that comes along with that that might seem indulgent or unnecessary in the cannon story.  I love when they are in character and really dealing with worry, anxiety, love, whatever.  Or, it's someone putting together bits of cannon to make an interesting observation, or in other words, it gives a WHY to some smaller mentions in cannon.  I love missing scene fanfics and how those fit with the rest of the story, codas, etc... because it all just explores cannon further and I love those explorations.  And it is something that the show can't quite do lest it distract from the story that a tv show/movie/book is obligated to tell.  It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not I identify with a character.

And don't get me wrong, I can understand the other camp, because I know the people you're talking about definitely exist, and I personally know some of them, but they aren't everybody.  Which is why I will kindly stay away from the "Sulu is abused" fics.  But please, feel free to write/enjoy them.

But yeah.  I hope that makes what I'm trying to say clear, and I hope that whether or not you agree you can at least understand where I'm coming from.

I'm really not trying to step on any toes or over generalize or anything, and like I said, I'm pretty bad at getting what I mean in my head to turn into what you read on your screen.  So, I hope that this made sense.  And I also super apologize in advance if I've offended anyone.  That is so far from my intention, it's not even funny.  This is just a response that I felt I had to post because frankly, I was thinking about it all week, and I just had to post it somewhere.  I hope that you will all see it for the honest response that it is and not an attempt to tell anyone what to write in fanfic or whatever.  But I just do have strong feelings about what is and isn't considered Cannon, specifically cannon.  That doesn't mean it can't be done in fanfic.  It just means it's not cannon.  ...Unless it is.... :)  And again, I know this is a sensitive issue, and I do apologize if I've offended anyone.   I've tried to handle it as considerately as possible while also trying to be as honest as possible.  Thank you for bothering to read my response, and I have really enjoyed the conversations I have with ppl online. on this subject.

Title: Constants of the Universe
Characters: Kirk POV, Spock, Bones, mentions of whole crew
Pairings: Mention of Spock/Uhura, Kirk, Bones, Spock friendship
Rating: PG-13, really just for swear words though
Warnings: Just Swear words. Mention of violence/injury (not graphic)
Summary: Kirk gets injured (again), gets bored while he’s injured, and contemplates his friends and his ship while waiting for the Enterprise to rescue him.
Disclaimer: Zero money is being made off of this.  Duh.
A/n: OK, so I attempted a weird structure.  This is a one shot, and it is a story in list form.  Sort of.  I’m not sure how I feel about it.  Let me know what you think!  If you think the structure works, or if  I need to actually expand the story so that all the list stuff gets in, or whatever else you thought about it!  Constructive Criticism is super welcome! 

Enjoy the story!
-crazytook

A white-hot flash of sharp pain ripped through Jim Kirk’s side.  He tried to let out a scream, or at the very least, a moan, but found he was too weak and exhausted to do either.  He took as deep of a breath as he dared take and slowly let it out.  The pain begin to subside a fraction.  Angry thoughts creeped into his brain.  Damned diplomats on alien planets.  This time, the supposed diplomat that had invited him over to this back-asswards fucked up little planet had beat the crap out of him with some kind of knife thing that he’d never seen before.  After he'd gotten his ass handed to him, the diplomat had left him to die-or so he assumed-and he’d managed to run away and hide.  He'd been stripped of phaser and communicator upon his arrival, so calling the ship really hadn't been an option, and finding the "diplomat" to give him his due wasn't either. So he ran and hid.   He had  succeeded in finding a shelter to lay down and pass out in.  Hopefully, it would keep him hidden, cave like things were good for that, right?  All big and empty….shit, well, there were a lot of the caves and it was unlikely they'd come looking for him anyways, right?  Kirk mentally sighed, mostly because he didn’t dare attempt to physically breath in so deeply.   His plan had serious flaws in it.  Being this hidden decreased the chances of anyone on the Enterprise finding him. Sometimes Kirk hated his lack of forethought, he always had to solve the problem in front of him without thinking of the consequences, didn't he?  Ah well, it wasn't as if he'd had much choice, and besides, he was proud of the forethought he had to rip off the bottom half of his shirt and use it as a kind of bandage.  Of course, he knew that it was soaking up blood slower than he was bleeding out. 

Kirk groaned as another flash of pain hit him.  Or rather, he tried to groan.  Man, he felt pathetic.  And pissed.  Pissed at the Federation, mostly because he knew someone or multiple someones were out to get him.  He, she, they, or hell, it wanted him to fail.  This was the 5th mission in 3 months that he’d been specifically assigned to by the Federation with the orders to sign some kind of treaty, or address the planet's request to join the federation, or whatever diplomatic bullshit they stated they had.  When in reality it was always a planet that was bat shit insane and got their kicks out of maiming or attempting to kill Federation Starship Captains. 

And he knew that the Federation knew these planets were high risks, that they were most likely lying or setting some kind of trap.  His whole ship knew it.  And shit,  Bones and Spock most certainly knew it.  Spock, at least just left it at telling him that he was either acting illogically or the only logical choice was to proceed despite the risks.  But Bones.  The first mission that had gone wrong, Bones had just assumed it was Jim and his recklessness and/or bad luck.  After the third mission, Bones kept nagging Jim  round the clock that he didn’t have to go on those “damned away missions”, and “Good God man, let someone else risk their skins”, and “Damn it, Jim, I may not be able to put you back together one day”, and “I’m a Doctor, not a magician.”, and again just for good measure, “Damn it, Jim.".

But today,after fucked up mission number 4,  a "bad feeling" about this specific mission,  and Spock actually agreeing with Bones that the mission had a "high probability of being a trap", Bones had practically begged him not to go, reminding him it was a trap of some kind, and he was going to end up hurt or worse.  In all the years he'd know him, Kirk had never heard Bones remotely beg anyone for anything before.  And, sure he’d felt a little bad when he did make the decision to beam down, but he had a duty.  They wanted the Captain, and he was the Captain.  And yes, he was not a complete moron and knew the request to “come alone” really meant, “we want to maim, torture, or otherwise do unpleasant things to you.“.   But Pike had gone when Nero called him over, and his father’s captain had gone, and he was sure his father would’ve gone had it ever come to that, and he damn sure wasn’t going to be the one to break the pattern. 

Another flash of pain hit him, this time in his chest, distracting him from his thoughts, his only conscious focus being the pain.  By the time the pain subsided, he’d realized he was getting bored.  He almost wished he’d pass out to have something to do. As he lie there in pain and probably a small pool of his own blood, he figured his thoughts would have to suffice as entertainment, but damn it all if he didn’t wish he hadn’t brought a PADD with something to read or watch on it.  And well, screw it, but there was no use wishing now, he didn’t have one on him, so he might as well try to think positively.  The Enterprise would find him eventually, and there were plenty of PADDs on board the ship, if Bones let him read one while he was in Sickbay.  That man ruled the Sickbay with an iron fist when Kirk was involved.  Kirk never had any fun in there.  And when the Enterprise came for him, he would get to once again enjoy Bones’ hospitality.  Because the Enterprise would come for him.  He knew that.  If there was one thing Kirk was glad of, it was that there were certain Universal constants such as that.  And he began to list the things he knew to be true in his head.

 1)The enterprise will always come for him.  Sure, he hadn't always had the benefit of that  kind of assurance in his past, but he sure as hell had it now.  After the first month in and two bad missions, he knew that one for sure.  And he knew it still held true now.

He kept listing in his head.  Hell, it was something to do.  He knew

2) If the Enterprise didn't come for him it was because it was not humanly-or Vulcanly-
possible to reach him.  Or his rescue meant the destruction of a planet or the death of  hundreds, thousands, millions, or hell, ones,  and his crew wasn't about to make that sacrifice, even for him.  And his crew sure as hell wouldn't make him deal with the guilt again of someone else sacrificing their life or lives for his.  Or he had given explicit orders that they not come for him.

3) The latter two reasons were unlikely and Kirk really just told himself they were true so he could sleep at night.


4) Spock and Bones will always find something to bicker about, because no matter how much Bones understands why Spock worked so hard on  the whole “I control my emotions, they are illogical and I WILL control them” (he had been there for the first act of  the "Kirk gets choked" show) he will always be frustrated by it  and pissed off by it, because with Bones, misery DOES love company.  And the most he can even began to compromise on the issue is to demand that if Spock insists on not showing emotion, he at least admits that he does feel them. 

5) Spock will always refuse to give into Bones even that much and insist Bones is being illogical regarding that issue. And hell, all other issues, because Kirk was positive he Enjoyed-yes enjoyed- pissing Bones off.

6) Kirk will always secretly agree with Bones-he had the strictest of confidences that Spock was capable of  the moderation of emotions in ways other Vulcans probably aren't.

7) Spock will always find a veiled way to express his emotions to him, Bones, and Uhura, anyways.  Because, secretly, maybe Spock believes it's true too.  Or at the very least might think that maybe, just maybe, since he is half human, it is only logical that he can temper his emotions and experience them in a way that other Vulcans cannot-although that is a theory on which he has insufficient data and prior experiments and investigations have shown that the most logical course of action would be to continue down the Vulcan path.

8) Kirk will always be amazed at the logic games Spock can play with himself.  And always wonders if he can’t find a way to phrase that so it doesn’t always sound so dirty.

9) Spock and Bones will always stop arguing and become the most scary, terrifying, yet formidable team ever whenever Kirk is threatened or in danger.

10) Kirk will always be thankful for having such fiercely loyal friends.


11) Kirk will always keep it a secret-even to Spock- that he knows that at the end of the day, Spock is just as reckless as Kirk no matter what Spock tells himself so he can sleep at night.  And will wonder if maybe Uhura knows it too.

12)  Uhura will probably know a side of Spock he will never see.  And he’ll probably always know one she won’t either.

13) Uhura will never sleep with him.  She’s a Spock girl, he figures.  Him and Spock just won’t ever have the same girls competing for them.  Just not her type, he figures.  

14) Uhura will never actually mother Chekov, she's happy enough leaving that up to Bones.

15)  Chekov will always go straight to Sulu when he's injured.  And Sulu (because Chekov’s always more injured than he’s willing to admit or that will “just heal on its own” ) will have to drag him to sick bay where he'll get yet another lecture from Bones on not trying to act like an adult and to act like one by being responsible for his injuries.

16) Bones will always lecture more softly and less gruffly when Chekov’s involved.

17)  Bones will always smile after the infectious kid leaves sick bay just fine and all patched up.

18) When Chekov’s not “just fine”, Bones will curse everything that exists and some things that don’t, and eventually lose the heart to curse anything until the kid wakes up.

19) Sulu will always be found in the fencing room working out “aggression” when Chekov is hurt that badly.

20) Sulu will always secretly be a bad ass, he's fine with no one knowing.

21) Chekov will always admire Sulu's fighting skills over  Kirk's.

22) Kirk will always secretly appreciate that.

23) Kirk will always also appreciate that Scotty will always scheme anyone's death who insults the enterprise. And Kirk will always turn the death schemes into harmless-ish pranks.

24) Scotty will always pick a slightly crueler prank then the one Kirk suggested.

25)  Kirk will always laugh harder at the prank Scotty picked.

26) Kirk doesn't mind the childish shenanigans that sometimes go on the Enterprise, it's a better
ship than any other in the fleet with a better crew no matter how the Federation tries to sabotage him.

27) The Federation will try to sabotage him until they respect him.

28) It's going to be an indefinite amount of missions that Kirk will have to deal with being beamed directly to Sick bay until that happens.

29) Bones will always be pissed when Kirk comes back injured.

30) Every time Bones says, "Damn it, Jim!" he's really saying, "I love you."

Kirk laughed a little as an image of the doctor gruffly yelling at him for reckless behavior  while Spock either sat there silently trying to control his emotions-cause that guy  worried about him, yeah, he knew he worried and dare he think it, was scared for him- or he announced his judgment as to whether or not Kirk's behavior had been "logical".  With that image in his mind, Capt. James Tiberius Kirk lost consciousness with a smile on his face.

Which is exactly how Dr. Leonard McCoy, aka Bones, found him, Spock in tow. 

Kirk slowly started to regain consciousness as he heard Bones shout, "Over here!" to someone. 

"What is his condition, Doctor?"  Kirk heard the unmistakable voice of Spock say.

"The smiling moron is stable, but I have to get him back to the ship immediately!"  He heard Bones abrasively demand.

And in true Spock fashion, Kirk listened in a dream like state as Spock wasted no time ordering Scotty to beam them up directly to Sickbay.  He heard the rushed "Aye, Sir" from Scotty.

And just before he felt his particles pull apart to be put together back on the Enterprise, he felt Bones lean over him protectively as he said to himself, "Damn it, Jim."

Kirk laughed a little in his head as he floated away back home.

I'm going to ramble for a little bit, because this is going to bother me.  So, I'm rambling here mostly because I can.  I was talking to another person and it was brought up that Sam is such an introverted guy, that there is a lot of disagreement about who exactly he is as a person.  As opposed to Dean, whose traits seem a lot clearer.  So, I'm going to make a list, because if you can't tell I like lists.

So. Sam. Who is Sam?

Well, what are the facts?

-Felt no one had ever asked him what HE wanted to do with his life until he was 14 (After School Special)
-Spent a good portion of his life looking up to Dean (Fresh Blood....I think, he has a speech)
-Got in a fight with his Dad and left for Stanford, maybe didn't talk to Dean for that whole time, or contact was lost a little later.
-Wanted a normal life (pilot)
-Associates normal with safe (pilot)
-Motivated by revenge (pilot, Wendigo, etc...)
-Empathetic towards others, relatively compassionate (Croatoan, Scarecrow, etc...)
-Feels he's cursed/dangerous to be around (the Sarah/scary painting episode, and a bunch of eps after that including Lucifer Rising)
-Feels guilty about a lot of stuff like Jessica's death (bloody mary) that isn't necessarily his fault
-Feels he's damned (playthings)
-Says he would do anything for his brother (Bloody Mary)
-Feels it's his job to make sure Dean doesn't get hurt (All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2)
-Feels a little trapped by the protectiveness/bossiness of his father and brother (Asylum, Sex and Violence,Playthings)
-During the series, he's lost a person a season except for S4.  But he's also killed/lost Madison, failed Eva, and caused the apocalypse.

 

So, this is the first Supernatural fic that I have written.  Please leave constructive criticism or comments after you've read!  Enjoy!
Fandom: Supernatural
Characters: Sam and Dean
Spoilers: Yeah, everything up to S4 Finale
Warnings: Um, none.
Disclaimer: If it were mine, I would have...yeah I got nothing, including the copyright to this show.
Summary: Sam thinks about Dean while Dean is in hell and wonders if maybe Dean is watching. 

This story was originally written to give some fun background into the whole "I saw Indiana Jones 4 without you" line and turned into something entirely different, but also manages to explain the "I forgot the pie " line from I think Family Remains or Heaven and Hell or one of those "Dean hell confessions" moments.  OK, that's all from me.  Enjoy the fic! 

On with the Story!!!



The problem with grief was that it was not world shattering.  Sure, it was just enough to be world altering, but it never truly stopped the world, not really.  It felt to Sam that the combination of grief and guilt should be enough to bring his world to a screeching halt, or a gigantic implosion, or at the very least suck it all into a black hole where there was nothing but the agony.  But it didn't.  The world kept moving, and forcing him to trudge along, like a train whose doors had snatched his backpack and was jerking him along the tracks, or a horse that had reared and despite his foot caught in the stirrups, continued to run along the jagged and rocky terrain it dragged him across.  The problem was that the sun still set, the moon still rose, and about 8 hours later it was time to do it all over again. The world acted just as it did when Dean was still alive.  Sam noticed that of late, he was having trouble comprehending how after three months the Earth continued to turn.  Sam had not noticed this at first, at first when he'd been in a haze of booze and kamikaze plans.  But, then, something had happened, something inside Sam had flipped.  And it was all because of Ruby.  Ruby's words to him.  They were so like something Dean would have said, he could hear Dean’s voice echoing in those words.  But the moment he looked back at the face that spoke them was the moment that Sam realized that Dean was dead.  Dean had died and gone to hell, and there was nothing Sam could do to alter it.  He was helpless, powerless, weak.  He had nothing, no course of action, Dean was in hell and there was nothing that Sam or anyone could do to bring him back.

Sam had wanted to shove Ruby's knife into his heart right there.

But Ruby's next words had stopped him, because those words reminded Sam that if Dean knew what Sam was doing, he would kill him.  He would be so royally pissed off, he would kill him, and he'd make sure Sam came back as a ghost just so he could kill him again.  And maybe, just maybe,  he'd sell his soul again to get Sam back  and brave hell gladly just for the sheer joy of revenge it would be to  kill him a third time. 

And that had caused Sam to endure a moment of horror, because what if Dean knew?  Hell could work in a lot of different ways.  Sam knew better than anyone all the different accounts there were, from Dante to James Joyce.  What if this was some kind of torture?  What if the demons in hell were showing Dean images of his fucked up precious little brother?  What if Sam was somehow contributing to Dean's torment?  It was bad enough Dean was there because of his failure in the first place, it killed Sam to think that Dean was suffering further because of his actions and his selfish grief.

But as suddenly as the thought had Sam gaping in horror, it had him sighing in relief.  What if Dean could see him?

 It brought Sam some comfort, like maybe Dean was around somehow, and maybe Ruby knew that, and maybe that's how she knew what to say.  Maybe Ruby really was looking out for him, maybe she had watched Dean and figured out how he dealt with Sam, maybe she did it so he'd never really lose Dean.  Maybe the two of them had conspired, because Dean knew Sam better than Sam knew himself, and he had to have known that Sam would need him, and if he couldn’t have him, at least he could give Sam the next best thing-his own specially trained substitute.  Sure, it was a bit like sugar substitute where the aftertaste reminded you that it was most definitely not the real thing, but after awhile, you got used to it, and while you pined for sugar, you could get through a meal without being tempted.  And maybe, just maybe, Ruby knew Dean could see him. 

And Sam did not feel so alone.

But, the thought still didn't quench the vengeance from his heart.  It didn't make Sam any less angry or any less of a failure.  He still had to make this up to Dean.  He couldn't just let this go.  Dean deserved more.  So, Sam decided to repay Dean the only way he knew how, revenge.  It was the only option left to him.  Just going on hunting without Dean, as though Dean had never been there seemed wrong and it certainly didn't seem fitting.  Dean deserved some kind of grand gesture, some kind of marker that he had been here and someone had cared.  So, Sam transformed his kamikaze plans to plans of revenge.  And even though he knew Dean would probably kill him for the manner in which he was getting revenge, at least maybe it might make Dean feel loved. Sam had always looked for ways Dean would let Sam show that, by talking to him or simply telling him, but Dean had always deemed them "chick flick moments" and had hated them, and had always preferred actions to words.  So, maybe Dean didn't care as much about Sam's powers now that he was in hell, and maybe if he could see, he'd know that Sam was doing it out of love.  Or maybe even, if Sam became too good, the demons would stop using him as some kind of twisted torture device and find other ways to hurt Dean.  So, maybe if they thought Sam was using his powers, they’d  still be able to use him to hurt Dean, they'd let him watch, but Sam would know and Dean would know the truth, and maybe Dean would be comforted by it.

And once Sam had figured that out, he found himself able to start to let go of the little things.

When Dean had first died, Sam had engaged in some pre-Dean's death habits.  He'd gotten two twins at motels, he'd find himself about to toss the keys to Dean, only to realize he wasn't there to catch them.  He'd lost count of the number of times the keys had actually hit the ground with that empty clanking sound in the early weeks. Sam kept to his side of the room, he'd made sure he left hot water in the shower, he even ordered two coffees in the mornings, a burger and a salad at lunch, and always a slice of pie with dinner. 

And every time he did one of these things, it would twist the knife.  Because each time Sam had a respite, a moment of relief in which he forgot that everything important in his life had gone to hell-literally.  And each time he was reminded, he had to go through the whole thing all over again.

Because even though Sam had spent most of his waking moments early on trying to either bring Dean to him or bring himself to Dean, those habits just don't go away.  They stay with you.  They're ingrained in your body, your bones, and even though your mind and heart and soul are telling you to give up, give in, don't do anything that won't bring Dean back or won't let you forget, his body insisted he sleep, his plans insisted he drove, and his stomach insisted he eat.  He hadn't for the first few days.  When he passed out the first time and woke up alone on the ground in the middle of a crossroads, he'd worried that he'd screwed something up, and realized that getting Dean back was preferable to his suicide.  So, while either would work, he wasn't going to put himself in front of Dean. Not this time. 

So, the little things continued.  And they continued to hurt.  Until he had figured out that maybe, just maybe Dean was watching, and slowly, one by one, the little things started to disappear.  He remembered to drive the Impala, he ordered only enough food for himself, he even began to get used to someone not having his back when he was hurt, it ceased being strange sewing himself up and popping dislocated joints back into place by himself.  He even began to sprawl out across the room and showered as long as he liked. 

He even stopped remembering the pie.

But he couldn't seem to stop getting the twin beds and he never learned how to sleep in the driver seat of the Impala.  Because Sam couldn't make himself forget about Dean right before he went to sleep.  He couldn't let his last waking thought at nights and his first thought in the mornings not be about Dean.  It felt like a dishonor to his memory.  It felt like he was letting himself off the hook.  It didn't matter how much it hurt to remember Dean wasn't just in the shower.  The moments he let himself believe Dean was just in the shower were Heaven.  The moments he let himself think that Dean was just getting some air as Sam slept in the passenger seat were worth the crashing reality.

Because remembering Dean was dead all the time was worse.  Every time he ordered only one coffee, every time he kept the keys to himself, and every time he sewed himself up, it made it all a reality.  It was the pain of the reminder without the relief of the illusion.
But Sam felt that he deserved as much.  His brother was in hell, why shouldn’t he be in his own version of it as well?  He just couldn't bring himself to let go completely of those moments.  It was part penance and part relief.  Those moments when in his head Dean was alive.  The highlight of his day. 

And at some point in time, it had never really been a conscious action, not really.  "Two twins" had always just been the first thing out of his mouth, and Sam had never figured out how to fall asleep with the driver's wheel at his knees. 

And the part of Sam that kept trying to believe that Dean was somehow watching felt that if he ever succeeded at getting Dean out of hell, Dean would see and wouldn't have to worry that Sam didn't have a place for him to sleep when he came back.

Of course, once Sam had realized that Dean wasn't coming back, he kept the space open so Dean would know Sam remembered him, that Sam wasn't just letting go, and maybe it would help explain what Sam was doing with Ruby. Maybe it would help Dean realize that he still thought of Dean, that he did it for Dean, because he couldn't just do nothing.  And maybe the gesture would help Dean realize.  If he was watching.  Maybe.

So, three months later, when Sam woke up again to a world with Dean and then crashed into a world without him, he knew he had to continue to get on with his day.  He had to look into getting Lilith, where she was, had to get stronger, had to force himself to push through the pain.  It saved lives, and how would Dean not be proud of that?

Dean always got mad whenever Sam strayed from the conventional hunting methods their father had taught them, but he'd always been impressed with Sam when they worked, always stood up to their father in his defense.  It was the only time Sam could ever remember Dean siding with Sam over John.  It was the only time Sam had ever seen Dean stand up to their father.  -------Dean had even said three years ago, way back when they'd had that fight.  He'd said that  he was proud of Sam for doing his own thing, for going after what he wanted.---------  Dean had always been proud of Sam for his ingenuity and ambition.  So, maybe, just maybe IF Dean could see him from hell, he'd maybe just maybe find it in him to smile-not even smile, just...just smirk a little, feel the slightest second of happiness in pride for Sam's ingenuity, for Sam managing to stumble out of bed in the morning and endure his own hell with strength and make the best out of the curse that was his powers.  Maybe, just maybe, the demons’ would mistake the smirk for a grimace and laugh with sadistic glee that Dean suffered to see his precious little brother give in to his darkest instincts, to see him give into his unnatural powers.  But they would know, just him and Dean, it'd be their little secret.  They would know why Sam was doing it, that it was for Dean, and that it was helping people.  And they would know that Sam was strong enough to control it, that Sam was different, that Sam could use his powers without giving in like Eva or Jake had, that Sam could carry on where Dean had left off, he could continue to live by Dean's words "saving people, hunting things." , and that he was OK.  Dean would want to know that Sam was somehow OK.  And, maybe Dean would know if he kept going after Lilith, kept using his powers to save people from demons.  Dean would know. 

And the demons wouldn't.  And what the demons would mistake for torture, would really be a moment of joy for Dean. One moment of joy in hell.  At least maybe Sam could do that much for his brother.  Maybe.

So, when the fourth Indiana Jones movie came out, Sam decided to go see it.  It felt all kinds of wrong, going with Ruby, but maybe, just maybe IF Dean was watching him from hell, he'd get to see the movie too, somehow. Maybe.

And when Sam decided to go ahead and drink the blood from Ruby, after he'd hesitated, after he'd refused, he knew, that maybe, just maybe, if Dean was watching, that Dean would smile.  Dean would know how much Sam was willing to give up for him, how far Sam was willing to go.  Sam had a sneaking suspicion that Dean never really believed him when he said he'd die for him, but maybe, just maybe, Dean would know he'd meant it.  He'd know how much he was loved, and he'd realize he'd gone to hell for a brother who had deserved it.

Maybe.

OK, so here's the youtube link.  It's....well, I think it's pretty funny....Just watch.  I enjoyed making it a lot, I hope you enjoy watching it!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDzYGpfLeswww.youtube.com/watch

OK, so I clearly think about Supernatural too much, but there you have it.  I think this post is going to sound more harsh to Dean than my last post.  I think that again, I would like to make it clear that I have nothing but love for these characters.  But, lately I've just been feeling that Dean is pretty much talked about by the fans as some kind of saint.  Like, the weaknesses other ppl on forums that I've talked to have presented have been so along the lines of like what you say at a job interview about your weaknesses, like things like "Dean doesn't realize how much he's worth, he has a low opinion of himself."  OK, guys, those aren't technically flaws.  They can lead to flaws, but that's like saying "I care too much".  That's fox news style "fair and balanced" and I think I'm just kind of annoyed with it, because it feels like Sam fans at least admit the flaws Sam has.  I admittedly lean towards "Sam" as a character, but I watched this show because they were brothers, and they are adorable brothers, and the first episode I ever watched was A Very Supernatural Christmas, and I really loved how much the brothers were shown too care about each other.  Dean was so adorable all worrying over Sam and taking care of Sam as kids, but also just being a normal big brother saying things like we keep moving because people get "sick of your seeing your face."  And I loved Sam having Christmas for Dean and Sam expressing how hard life would be without Dean and how much he needed Dean in his life and pairing that with the flashbacks showing just how much Sam thought Dean was a cool person and that a part of Sam needed Dean just because he liked Dean, not just because of the things Dean did FOR Sam, but just because he liked having Dean around.  The Winchester brothers are adorable.  They are.  And I love both of them dearly.  But, I'm gonna talk about Dean because I feel his character goes so unexamined because there's such an effort to keep him "sooo awesome" in a way that I don't feel happens as often with Sam.  I think with Sam,it tends to be more outliers, whereas I feel the outliers in the "Dean" camp are the ones who actually talk about how Dean's flawed.  I may just be fanning the flames of the polarization of the fandom, but it's frustrating to me, so I'm just going to talk about it here all the same cause I have to talk about it somewhere.  

But, to just make an attempt of not furthering the polarization, I'm going to discuss Sam very quickly to make sure I'm not aligning myself with a character camp.  Because I do love them both, and I don't wanna choose a side!  I won't!  I won't!  I won't!  :)

Sam's Flaws
Just to prove that I think he has them, here's a list.

1) He's impulsive
2) Vengeful
3)Stubborn
4)Overcompensates for his insecurities
5) Can be petulant
etc...


OK, so, that was just to try to show that I'm trying to be fair, because I really am not trying to rip on Dean, I just feel that to fully explore his character, you have to dig into his faults as well as his strengths.

I'm going to list Dean's flaws first, and then explain why I think those specifically are his flaws and why I think they are cannonically there.  I think Sam's flaws have been discussed to death, and are somewhat a little more obvious due to the "dark!Sam" stuff this season.

So, Dean.

1) He thinks his way is the best way.
2) He is blind to his role in the greater scheme of things
3) He has a hard time letting Sam help him
4) He puts his family before the lives of others.  This is also endearing, but it means he won't hesitate to kill innocents if it means that his family will be safe, ala S1.
5)

Why  I think Dean hunts.  And I list this because I actually think Dean has more of a stake in hunting than "it's the right thing."  as a lot of people tend to say.

I actually think that Sam is the one who is hunting for the sake of saving lives and Dean is in it for the fact that he likes the aesthics of hunting.

I'm going to use a firefighter as an example, because that is a job that goes relatively unthanked until something like 9/11 happens, and the pay kind of sux, so I feel it's a comparable career.

Sam is the firefighter who is in it because his house got burned down so now he's going to destroy every fire he can get his hands on in revenge.  However, while Sam is often motivated by revenge, as we see with Jessica, we do see how he actually STOPS that in S2, yes Sam's need for vengence comes back in S4, but his motivations actually did change.  Sure, he still wanted revenge on the YED, but there's a reason he goes back to hunt with Dean in the episode Scarecrow.  And in S2, when Dean wants to take a break from hunting and Sam doesn't, Sam's reasons for hunting are that he wants to save people so he can even out the scale and not be evil, but also revenge.  So, yeah, Sam is in it because he wants revenge, but also because he wants to save people, because saving people means he's a good person.  I think the other reason is that Sam does feel an obligation to his family and actually especially to Dean, to hunt.  We see in It's a Terrible Life, that Sam hunts for much these reasons.  He feels an obligation to his friend who died to find out what killed him, he wants to prevent whatever killed his friend from hurting anyone else (saving people), and he wants to kill whatever killed his friend (revenge).  That would be my top three list for why Sam hunts.

Why Sam hunts, in order from greatest to least reason.
This is actually tricky because reasons 1 and 2 fluctuate depending on where in the series we are.
1)Saving people
2)Revenge
3) Obligation.
As I said, 1 and 2 fluctuate.


Why Dean hunts, I think has more to do primarily because he enjoys the aesthics of hunting.  This is like a firefighter who enjoys the aesthics of what it takes to put out a fire.  Like, enjoying the elegance of ways a fire can be put out, starting at the base, using fire against fire, etc...  Of course they also save people, and of course that makes them feel good.  And of course, a firefighter who fights fire because of the elegance of it would not place putting a fire out elegantly in front of a human life, like, they wouldn't let a person burn in a fire because they can put the fire out more elegantly if they do.  Also, I think that part of the aesthic of hunting I think Dean enjoys is balancing the scales.  I think Dean really enjoys killing more demons/ghosts, etc....than they can kill humans.  I also think that part of the aesthic Dean enjoys is the idea that humans can actually take on the supernatural by being human.  Basically, I'm saying that Dean's aesthic of hunting isn't necesarrily about an efficiency of hunting, but that he really likes to watch humanness triumph over the Supernatural.  I think this is why the Angels' existance was a hard thing for him to accept at first.  Also, I think that Dean hunts to keep his family safe.  He feels the need to protect his own family, so he hunts.  I also think that more importantly, it was a way for Dean to keep his family together.  And, at the end of the day, I think that's Dean's biggest want, his "super objective" throughout the series, to have a close family that stays together.  I think Dean is very, "the family that hunts together, stays together."  And I think you can see where this is what Dean wants with Sam going to Stanford.  And really Dean trying to get Sam back from Stanford in the pilot.   Sure, Dean can hunt on his own, but really, I think for him it is a lot about "family bonding time".   And of course, Dean wants to save people.  It gives him warm fuzzies, and it's the right thing to do.  I think that Dean also has a little bit of the "Batman" thing in him where he wants to make sure that what happened to his family doesn't happen to anyone else's.  This, I think, actually gives Dean a little bit of a revenge motivation, but I'll get into that later.  
So, Dean's top three reasons:
1) The Aesthics of Hunting
2) Keeping his Family Together
3) Saving People

The reason I put saving people last is because, as I said earlier, saving people is actually included in the aesthics of hunting, but also because Dean has shown that he will kill innocents to protect his family.

Dean and Revenge
See, I think it's pretty easy to tell Sam and John Winchester are partly/very motivated by revenge.  But, Dean seems to be pretty clean of that motivation.  I don't disagree with this, revenge really isn't, I don't think, Dean's main motivation.  But, I don't think that Dean isn't a little motivated by revenge.  And the reason I say this is because at the end of the day, it was Dean that got to execute the final revenge on the YED.  And what does he say after?  "This is for our Mother (mom?) you son of a bitch."  I mean, that speaks a little of revenge to me.  I think the difference between Sam and John vs Dean, is that Dean isn't consumed by wanting revenge, and it isn't his first priority, so unlike Sam or John, he won't die for revenge.  But that isn't to say he doesn't want it at all.  Especially since he does tell the YED in In The Beginning, that he's the one that kills him in something that sounds awfully vengeful to me.  I think that Dean wanted revenge on the YED for taking his mother from him, etc...  Just a little, man, just a little.  I also think we see a bit of it, and this may be a stretch, but I do think we see it a bit when Sam dies.  Dean gets revenge on himself for failing, in a weird way, and in a way where it's about punishining himself for failing.  Which is a thing people do in real life where people are self destructive.  I think the reason Dean can want revenge without being able to describe him as a vengeful person, is that honestly, unlike John and Sam, Dean had both the luxury and misfortune of being 4 when his mom died.  At 4, he was more concerned with being confused at the loss of his mother, and would be seeking out stability as his primary want, not revenge.  John was an adult when Mary died, and Sam was 22/23 (I can never rememeber) when Jessica died.  And despite all that Dean's been through, he has never experienced losing someone he was "In Love With" like Sam and John did.  I don't think he'd necesarrily want revenge for that, though, I think he's more likely to blame himself or something, but still.  I think my point is that we have seen Dean capable of wanting revenge once or twice.  But he isn't vengeful.  And as I said earlier, he does have a little of the Batman thing going on where he isn't going to let this happen to anyone else, which is also a little bit of him wanting retribution at any rate.  

So, yeah, that's really it.  And honestly, a lot of this stuff is why I love Dean.  I think I just have to clear up that Dean isn't a poor selfless soul who's only flaw is that he has a low opinion of himself because if that were true, I would hate that guy. 

I mean, one of my favorite things about Dean was that in S1, he just straight up admits he'd do some scary things for his family, because, imo, most people would, but they don't admit it.  It's usually an issue characters have to deal with in the series, that realization that they care more about the ones they love than they do random strangers, and that's hard for them because they think all life is equal, but not our Dean.  He just 'fesses up, and I love that about him.  I really do.  I also love how much he's into doing things the "human way" or "Dad's way".  It's really cool to see him operate under those limitations and Win.  IMO, that's what made Jus in Bello such and awesome episode.  It isn't because they didn't kill the virgin, but because they fought human style and won....for like five minutes and then Lilith showed up, but still.

That's all I've got to say for now, please comment.  Opinions are always welcome!
 

OK, I'm going to start this post making it very, very clear that I do not think that one brother is better than the other.   That's kind of the point of this post.  Personally, I feel this fandom has become exceedingly polarized with the Sam vs. Dean issue.  And the reason I'm posting is actually to address why I think that's happening.  This polarization may be a case of some people being a very loud minority, but it does seem to be a thing.  I am also not trying to psychoanalyze the fanbase, I'm just bringing up some trends I've noticed on Supernatural forums and the relation to the actual show.  I tend to think in terms of motivation or psychoanalysis, so I apologize if I go to much into psychology.  It was my minor.  :)

So, Who is the better brother, Sam or Dean?

Obviously, as I've said both characters have gotten tremendous support from a split fanbase.  And, unfortunately, it seems that people like one brother over the relationship.  So... let's start with Dean.

Dean
From what I've noticed, people who support Dean tend to see Dean as the more supportive brother, the brother who was more often there for Sam, who dedicated his entire life to making sure his family stuck together, that his brother was safe, and sacrificed much of himself to make sure those goals were achieved, including making a deal with a demon to bring Sam back from the dead.  

Just the Facts
Mostly, these things are true.  Dean did dedicate his entire life to make sure his family stuck together, etc...
He did make a deal for Sam's life

He is very protective of Sam
Sam is often his main priority at personal cost to himself

Sam

From what I've seen, most people who support Sam tend to see Sam as the better character who often makes choices because of Dean's influence.  They see Sam as the more trusting brother, the more open brother, the more sharing and caring brother.  They also tend to see Sam as the one who is often the empathtic ones in cases, and is always trying to get Dean to let him help him with his issues.

Just the Facts
Mostly, these things are true.  Sam is often shown as the one who is more empathitic in cases, it's a running gag on the show.
He is often shown as trying to get Dean to open up, like when the dad dies, etc...
He has said he would do anything for Dean
Up until S4, Sam has always believed Dean when Dean pulls a big brother act and assured Sam that everyone

What they Each have going for them

Sam
caring
trusting
sharing
active, perserverance
Always wants to do something, doesn't want to be passive

Dean
giving
brave
sacrificing
righteosu (via plot, no idea what this means)
Active, always wants to save as many ppl as he can
Ingenuity

I am saying it right now, both brothers are of equal intelligence.  They have applied their intelligences differently, but the show has made it very clear that they have similar intelligence in subtle ways (i.e. dana shulps scene where they both realize it's an anagram at the same time)  And also, just genetically speakig (genetics from our universe to the Supernatural Universe do not differ from any indication the show has given.) brothers/siblings are rarely to never more than two or three IQ points apart, unless mental retardation is involved or seriously extreme genious (meanig well, well beyond the genius mark, like Stephen Hawking genius.)  So, while Sam and Dean may have different areas of expertise (Sam with computers, and Dean having more hunting knowledge.)  they have the same to very similar intelligences.  Also, the show is super inconsistent with what knowledge Dean and Sam have.  For example, there is an episode where Sam pushes Dean in a ruse to get information from a cop, and Dean later says something about the shove seeming a little to real, and Sam replies "Hey, I had to make it look real.  Method Acting".  Sam makes a reference to Method Acting.  Later, in Hollywood Babylon, Dean talks about how Tara has stepped up her performance and attributes it to her using "sense memory".  Sense Memory is a component of Method Acting.  Both times the brothers referred to acting, the other brother had no idea what they were talking about, but yet, they both refer to Method Acting at some point in time.  So, yeah, I'm not going into the intelligence thing, it also seems irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

What they don't have going for them

Dean

his deal has elements of selfishness
he cav become impractical when his family is in danger
He is also the one who takes a harder stricter view on all things supernatural, this changes in his character arc as the show goes on, but he does start off thinking in a fairly black and white manner
Stubborn
Self loathing
And in S4, angsty, sure it's justified, but it's also true (this is more of the writer's fault, but there it is)

Sam
Stubborn
Vengeful
Reactive to authority (in a negative way)
Blames himself for a lot (i.e. Jessica's death) that isn't his fault
Doesn't always take the blame when it is his fault
Demon Blood (what this means hasn't really been explained) and the complexes it gives him
He's angsty too




So....what is my point in all of this?  Well, basically, I think that Sam and Dean are both pretty equally flawed and equally awesome.  This manifests in different ways, but there you have it.

So, I think I want to discuss my actual point, which is (and right now, this is mostly notes for myself) why I think that Sam can come off as the better brother.

Sam comes off as the better brother, to those who support Sam, because he is the more sharing and caring one.  He is always the one trying to deal with what Dean is feeling.  He also is the one who adorably blames himself for stuff he shouldn't.  He has a major Cassandra complex, and that can be endearing to many people.  As far as his relation to Dean goes, he challenges Dean's way of thinking without insulting Dean, he always makes Dean reevaluate the "right way" of doing things, and he tries to let his brother let him help.  S2 has a great deal of Sam trying to get Dean to let him help him get over their father's death.  S3 is all about Sam trying to get Dean out of the deal, but more importantly, to get Dean to admit that he's worth saving and to discuss his fears about...well, hell. 

This is why I think Dean can come off as the better brother.

Dean comes off as the better brother, to those who support Dean, because he has made big sacrifice after big sacrifice.  Starting all the way from childhood.  He helped bring up Sam.  He put Sam's needs before his own, even when they were kids.   He still puts Sam's needs before his own.  He helps Sam through his issues (i.e. Jessica's death) by pulling big brother stunts and sometimes just plain "yelling" at Sam out of his problems (i.e. in S1, when he pulls the car over in Bloody Mary).  He puts innocents before himself, he is always trying to do the right thing, and is always reevaluating what said right thing is.  He stands by his principles.  He has constant faith in Sam's goodness as seen in S2.

So... why do I think these assumptions exist?  What's better?  Being there for someone to talk, or kicking the ass of the demon that hurt them?

The answer is they are equally awesome.

So, why do some people think one is better than the other?

It's because the role Dean takes and the role Sam takes are typical of big brother/little brother roles.  Or for that matter, just general older sibling/younger sibling roles.

So what are these roles, generally speaking?

I think the best example I can give requires you to imagine a two sibling family with a boy and a girl.

Imagine the girl is the younger of the two.  So, a 16 year old girl has an older brother. Imagine this girl is crying in her room because she had sex with her boyfriend and he broke up with her that day (like a week after they slept together) and now she feels used.  Her older borhter, generally/sterotypically speaking, will knock on her door, asks her what's wrong, and when she tells him, will proceed to threaten the boyfriend in a thousand different ways,and possibly actually following through on one of them. 

Imagine this exact same scenario for the 16-year old girl, except instead of an older brother, give her a younger brother.  Her younger brother comes into her room, asks her what's wrong, and when she tells him, will proceed to go to either give her a hug, sit with her while she cries, or do something like go to the freezer to grab her some Ben and Jerry's, he might also make a bunch of jokes simply to cheer her up.

With me so far?

My point with these general sibling roles is this:
Older siblings deal with the world when their younger siblings are in trouble.  Older siblings tend to be given a narrative by their parents that they are to watch out for their siblings, protect them, help to guide them, etc...So, when something is wrong with their younger siblings, the older siblings attributes that problem to a problem with the world at large, which they then proceed to attempt to fix, or at least assure their younger sibling that they are going to fix it.

Younger siblings deal with their older sibling themselves.  Younger siblings tend to be given a narrative by their parents that they should be thankful they have an older sibling to "pave the way" for them, that they should always be supportive of their older sibling, they tend to look up to their older siblings and sometimes see them as capable of just about anything as children, etc... So, when something is wrong with their older siblings, the younger sibling deals directly with the older sibling's emotional state.  Younger siblings tend to see the problem not as "something bad happened to their older sibling" but that "their older sibling feels bad, and that IS the problem".  So, the younger sibling moves straight to try to fix the fact that the older sibling feels bad by trying to make them feel another emotion.  They could employ many tactics to do this.

Older siblings are more active in their relationships with their younger siblings, and youngers' take on a more passive role.

As far as I'm concerned, Dean and Sam follow this pattern to the letter.  Dean is an awesome big brother.  Sam is an awesome younger brother.  But, what makes them each an awesome brother to the other is a different set of traits. 

I think that Dean supporters vs. Sam supporters depends on which set of traits you see as more noble or "good" or whatever positive adjective you would like to insert here.  But the truth of it is, problems occur in the relationship when Dean tries to be a great younger brother or Sam tries to be a great older brother.  The relationship actually can't survive such a role reversal. 

Which brings me to the reason I think the brothers' relationship is having issues in S4.  Sam is sick of being passive.  The man has a major Cassandra complex brewing since S1, and Dean's death just pushed it over the boiling point.  Sam is tired of not feeling like he has control over his own life.  So, he gets his powers and all, and Dean comes back.  Time for him to take the little brother passive role again, right?  Yeah, easier said then done.  He actually does a good job of this at first, even though he's lying to Dean and sneaking around, but the show addresses that he's waiting for the right moment to tell Dean, so that's understandable enough.  Sam goes back to being a good younger brother.  But, later, his secret comes out and Dean remembers hell, and the shit hits the fan.  Because they are fighting cause Sam lied(and by fighting, I mean not seeing eye to eye) and Dean remembering hell starts to give Dean angst issues.  Dean becomes a weaker person than he was in S1, he loses a lot of his heart and "moxy".  Oh, he tries admirably, but there is a remarkable change from S1,2 and 3 Dean to S4 "remembers hell" Dean.  And Sam's little brother "talk to me" methods aren't working.  Sam, for whatever reason, starts to worry that maybe Dean isn't safe, that Dean has some kind of death wish (the magician episode, "it ends bloody"), that Dean isn't strong enough to handle Angels and Demons with super powers that the awesome insta-demon death knife won't kill.  Since Sam does have cool awesome powers that can take on the demons, and remembering from S3 just how easily Dean can be taken from him and not wanting to go through that again, and Sam wanting power to control his own life and enjoying having power, Sam decides that he is going to protect Dean for a change.  And Sam attempts to take on the older brother role.  This just seems insulting to Dean.  Their relationship suffers because Sam attempts a role reversal.  Dean not liking Sam doing this probably generates resentment in Sam, and the whole thing just spirals on like that.

So yeah.   I'm going to edit this later, but yeah, that's my point.

Thanks for reading!


 

Happy Belated Birthday!!!!

 I have a question for all fa s of Wincest.  I'm writing a paper for a class about American cultural cues to communicate two people are involved in a sexual or romantic relationship.  Part of this paper is actually discussing incest, I also talk about the Petrellibros.  If you are a Petrilicest fan as well, just replace the last  name Wincest with Petrillicest a d answer the same questions. 

So, I was actually wondering if any of you guys are Dean/Sam shippers or fans of Wincest if you could just leave me a short PM or post or something answering three questions:

1) If you think the show itself is implying the Winchesters brothers are involved (i.e. Wincest as some kind of cannon), what aspects of their relationship leads you to conclude they are involved in a sexual and/or romantic relationship in addition to being brothers, or do you think the romantic/sexual aspects are the more defining aspect of their relationship?

2) If you don't think Wincest is cannon (please answer this if you think it's cannon too), what interests you about these two characters being romantically and/or sexually involved?

3) If you don't think Wincest is cannon, what aspects of their relationship would have to change for you to believe it was cannon without it being verbally stated?


.  Please, please, please don't take this as any kind of attack or an attempt to psycho-analyze you.  I'm just doing this paper for a class, and I thought I'd get research from like, actual people.  I think it's interesting and I'm approaching this subject with zero judgment, positive or negative. 

Also, please don't feel like you must rationally explain yourself.  I want to know what you instinctively think.  I'm not arguing with anyone about anything, this is seriously just your thoughts. 



Thank you guys so very much for any response you can give me!  It'll be super helpful!

Title: Desperado
Author: crazytook
Summary:  Post-Meat.  Jack realizes how Torchwood has changed him, and he wants Ianto to help him. 
Spoilers: Meat, Doctor Who S3, Fragments
Rating: PG. 
Pairing: Jack/Ianto
Warnings: Gwen friendly.
Disclaimer: I don't own them...yet.

a/n:  This is a response to all the Meat fics I've been reading lately.  A lot of them have been great, but I find myself often disagreeing with the ways the characters react to the events.  I don't think Ianto was all that badly hurt in the ep, and i don't think he was mad at Jack, and I think Jack reacted the way he did to Gwen for a lot of different reasons than because he had a little crush on her.  
So, I wrote this.  Please, please, please read.  And please comment.  concrit totally welcome!





EXTRA a/n  Ok, so my n key is broke, so most of my ns are not capitalized.  I apologize for that.  Also, the converation at the end is a little experiment in how much prose I could leave out, so please let me know how you liked that.  Please, please comment.  They help me oh so much. 
And constructive criticism is more than welcome, it’s encouraged.  I would also like to apologize to all the gwen-bashers out there.  This is so gwen-friendly.  I just think that it’s cannon, and we all kind of have to deal.  But hopefully, this will help make her more tolerable?
Oh, and also, your interpretation of what’s going on in this story is also totally welcome I like to know what I’ve actually succeeded in getting across.  Thank you all!!!


To the story!!!!

Desperado

"Freedom, oh freedom, well that's just some people talking.   Your prison is walking through this world all alone."  Desperado-The Eagles

Jack stared at the defiance in Gwen’s eyes.  Felt Ianto staring at his back.  And he knew then.  He knew he had a choice.  Either continue with the restraints Torchwood had placed on him for so very long and isolate Gwen from the world just like everyone else, or set her free.  Let her be what he hired her for.  His connection with the outside world.  The world he was trying to save.  After all, how do you save a world you’re not a part of?

So Jack decided.  But, he wasn’t at all surprised when he heard the hint of jealousy in his voice as he said, “Give my love to Rhys and I’ll see you in the morning.” 

And with that, he stomped off, automatically catching the bottle of water Ianto threw at him as he stormed into his office.  He sat down bitterly and turned the CCTV to watch Gwen and Rhys. 

It really wasn’t fair.  At least a century with Torchwood, and they had always kept him separate, always isolated, always alone.  How many times had he had to fake his death?  Too many.  How often did he have to lie to someone he loved?  21.  How many wives had grieved for him when he widowed them too soon?  3.  And his children.  How many children grew up never really knowing their father?  That question, he truly had no answer to.  And all because of Torchwood.  All because they had trapped him here.  Sure, he’d gallivant off on his own, but they kept a short leash on him.  Always knew where he was.  Always knew what he was doing.

And Gwen.  After only one short year at Torchwood.  She gets to keep Rhys.  Gets to stop lying.  Oh, she really didn’t know what she was saying when she told Jack he didn’t understand.  Maybe she was right about the others.  But Jack understood.  He understood all too well.  And it was at that moment of recognition that he realized he had to let Gwen be.  He had to break the cycle.  He couldn’t let Gwen suffer because of what Torchwood did to him.

After all, he needed her.  He needed her strength to stay connected to the world.  To be able to work at Torchwood and live on Planet Earth.  It wasn’t an easy job.  Suzie had failed miserably at it.  But Gwen was stronger than that, and Rhys really seemed to give her some of that strength.  So if she needed him, she needed him.

And Jack wouldn’t lie.  Well, at least not to himself.  He had originally hoped Gwen would have saved him.  Personally saved him.  He had banked on her strength to maybe give him a normal life away from this place.  Away from this place of death and destruction and cruelty. 

While he’d been away, he’d even pictured white picket fences and perhaps a dog with her.

But having married him would have married her to the job, and she was useless to him then.

She needed Rhys.

And with that epiphany, his fantasies of  Gwen changed to fantasies of Ianto .
Going back to Ianto’s flat.  Having a home cooked meal.  Sleeping in that fantastic King size bed of his, with the super not to hard, not to soft, but just right mattress.  Waking up to Ianto’s coffee, and not having to wait for Ianto to arrive at the hub to get it.  Weevil hunting with Ianto.  Saving the world with Ianto.

And then, of course, Ianto’s death.  And that was when he would flit back to fantasies of Gwen in his head.

“Umm…Excuse me, Sir?”  Ianto started, interrupting Jack’s thoughts completely. 

Jack looked up to see Ianto standing there, a cup of hot liquid in his hand.

“I brought you some herbal tea.  I didn’t think caffeine was a good idea given the recent circumstances.”  Ianto said, handing Jack the cup.  Jack put his hand on Ianto’s as he took the cup from him.  Jack held Ianto’s hand in his for a few moments, circling his thumb over Ianto’s palm.  Slowly, he released his hand as Ianto came behind him and proceeded to give him a back massage.  Jack simply relaxed into the touch. 

“Thanks, Ianto.”

“no problem, sir.”

“Are you going home soon?”

“Possibly.  I was planning on cooking Penne ala Vodka.”

“My favorite.”

“I know.”

The conversation paused slightly until Ianto eventually broke the comfortable silence.

“I was thinking I would watch a movie.  I was planning on The X-Files.”

Jack laughed, but the smile left on his face didn‘t quite reach his eyes.

“Ianto, look around you, we are the X-Files.  Or an x-file at least.  We’re the secret government organization, I believe Mr. Mulder was trying to uncover.”

“Yes, I know.  That’s why I liked the show.  Always liked the show, actually.  Was really into it when I was about 13 or so.  That show was very much about escapism for me.  Still is.”

“Don’t you own Say Anything or something?”

“80’s movies, Sir?”

“I like the 80s.”

“I do own that, yes.  I don’t watch it much, sir.  Never really cared for those films.  I have to be in a very specific mood.”

“Ah.”

Silence reigned in the room.  The only sounds for the next ten minutes were of Jack appreciating his massage, and Tosh and Owen leaving the hub.

“Ianto, you should go home now.  No good in keeping you trapped here.”

“Would you care to drive, sir?”  Ianto said, holding up a set of keys.

Jack simply looked at Ianto for a second, barely noticeable, but the Welshman had caught the look.

“no good in keeping you trapped here either.”  Ianto said with a smile.

Jack simply smiled back and caught the keys Ianto tossed him.

 As they walked outside, Jack realized he wouldn’t have to lie to Ianto, wouldn’t have to fake his death and run away from him.  He hadn’t been forced to do any of those things in quite some time.  Things had calmed down around the 80s.  While he’d not been allowed to tell others outside of Torchwood, same as everyone else, they had stopped keeping him isolated from the rest of the team.  And he’d been running the place for the last 8 years or so now. 

He’d had his freedom for a while now.  But he still just kept doing what he had always done.  What Torchwood had always forced upon him.  Voluntarily.  He didn’t know how to work any other way.   Torchwood had succeeded at conditioning him.   He’d become his own keeper.  By the time they’d let him go a little, he knew it wasn’t long until the Doctor came.  And then he’d have to leave all over again.

But the Doctor had come and gone now.  Jack had left and Jack had come back, and Ianto had stayed with him anyways.

And still, Jack was reluctant.  Jack was amazed at his own stubbornness.  His own lack of fight.  He used to rage against Torchwood.  And he’d sworn to the Doctor that Torchwood had changed.

And now, it really had.

And as he got into the driver’s seat, with Ianto next to him, he hoped that Ianto had the strength in him to fight against Jack’s own self imposed prison.

And as Ianto took his hand, and smiled to him as Jack started the car, he knew Ianto did.

He trusted Ianto to show him how to use his freedom.

Fin

Title: Wait Till Your Father Gets Home

Summary:  Another TW is a sitcom vid.  Except it's really more about the fact that TW uses a traditional family formula for the dynamics between the characters.  ...Basically it's a joke, watch and enjoy!!!!! (and please comment, constcrit welcome!)   :)

Spoilers:  All TW S1 and 2 as well as DW Stolen Earth

Rating: PG 

Characters: TW Team 

Pairing: Jack/Ianto....sort of, it's really about the team, but you know, squint.

Enjoy!  and please, please comment! as i said, constcrit is totally welcome!

LINK

www.youtube.com/watch

Title: Always a Woman to Me


Pairings: Lisa/Ianto, Jack/Ianto

Spoilers: Cyberwoman like whoa.  But then again, if you havent seen cyberwoman yet, you probably can't read/watch a whole lot on this website. :)

Summary:  Basically, a vid about the whole ianto/lisa thing.  from ianto's perspective.  has a fairly strong janto undertone. 

A/N This is my First Fanvid!!!!  I'm incredibly nervous about it.  I worked really hard on this one, and i finally decided to stop fiddling around with it and just go ahead and post it and stop being a perfectionist about the whole thing.  Please, please, please leave constructive criticism and/or comments.  I hope you enjoy viewing!!!


TO VID:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBqjMWnQE1o

-crazytook

OR READ IT HERE:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4438360/1/



A/N This was written in a moment of…insanity, I guess.  This is a one shot unless overwhelmingly requested otherwise.  Please leave comments and constructive criticism.  (I’ll actually edit the chapter, too based on feedback!!) 

This story is for cionaudha who loves neck snuggles.

Disclaimer: I don’t own them.  If I did, jack would be better written.  J
Enjoy!!!


Jack couldn’t bring himself to look away.  He never could.  He wished he could.  He wanted nothing more than to see something , anything else than the sight in front of him.  But there was something that drew him every time to some terrible sight before him.

And the Master liked it that way.

And Jack wished he could look away, if not just to spite the Master, to ruin his plan.

But even if he closed his eyes, he could still hear the screams filtering into his glass cell.

He didn’t know which was worse.

For a moment, the screams hit an impossibly high note and he silently wished that maybe it was enough to break the glass.  That maybe he could save the source of the screams.

But Gwen Cooper’s voice was not strong enough, the screams continued, and the glass stayed in place.

“Please, please…” Jack found himself begging.  He hated when he begged.  But after watching them torture Gwen for days…he had run out of ways to contain the situation.  He’d tried yelling, screaming, protesting, pounding at the glass.  It only got him shot in the head.  He’d even tried seducing the Master.  That only got him fucked and shot.

Finally, they stopped.  Threw Gwen into a cell next to him, where he could see her, maybe even talk to her, if she had the strength to talk, but he couldn’t touch her, couldn’t hold her to comfort her.

And he wanted to be able to at least comfort her.  But the Master wouldn’t allow him that little reprieve.  

And it hurt more that she was so close, yet so unreachable.  

Because Jack was getting tired of telling members of his team that it would all be OK right before they died.  He didn’t want to lie to her, too.  He wanted to hold her and make her feel safe.  That wasn’t a lie.  He wasn’t promising anything, just offering momentary relief.

Because he wasn’t sure he’d be able to tell her she’d be OK.  In a matter of weeks, she’d be dead.  Depending on how long her body held out against the Master’s torture.

Gwen slid over to the glass near where Jack was.

“Jack…” She said softly.

Jack just looked up at her, sitting across from her, the glass in between them and held up his hand to the glass.  She copied the movement and put her hand against the glass where his was.  

“Shhh… Just…just get some sleep.  Just sleep.”  Jack managed to say.  

Gwen nodded, and laid down on the floor.  Falling asleep immediately.

Jack sighed.  He found himself watching her and dozing off as well.

When Jack woke up, Gwen was gone from her cell.

He listened.  He couldn’t hear her screams.  He stood to look around for her.  She was nowhere to be found.  He shuddered to think what the Master had done with her.  He started banging on the glass screaming her name, hoping that he’d get an answer of some kind.  

“Gwen!!”  GWEN!”  He yelled repeatedly, becoming hoarse.

“She’s alright for now.”  A familiar voice said from behind him.

Jack whipped around  to face the intruder.

“How’d you get in here?”  Jack demanded.

“I have my ways.”  The intruder said, a tiny smirk on his face.

“You have to get out of here, now.  It isn’t safe.”  Jack pleaded.

“I’ll be alright.  It’s you I’m worried about.”  

“Ianto…”  Jack faltered.

“Shh… I’m safe, I promise.”  Ianto reassured him.

“You’re dead.”  Jack stated forlornly, looking down.

“Is that what he told you?”  Ianto asked.

“Yeah.  He said  it when he…he had Owen.  Said he’d hunted all of you down, said you were all traveling together.  But that…that the ‘pretty one’…Ianto he said you’d been killed in some kind of cross fire.”

“And you believed him?”  Ianto asked, on the verge of rolling his eyes at Jack.

“What else was I supposed to believe?”

“That he was lying.  That I got away, and he didn’t want to give you any reason to hope for a rescue attempt.”  

“So, if you got away, what are you doing here?”

“Being that rescue attempt he was afraid of.”

“How’d you get in here?”

“Ran into a woman named Martha Jones.  She gave me a key.”  Ianto winked.

“Those didn’t work on the Master when the Doctor tried it…”Jack was confused.  This didn’t make sense.

“He wanted to see the Doctor.  He doesn’t want to see me.”  Ianto simply supplied.

“Why can I see you?”  Jack asked in the voice of a five year old.

Ianto chuckled.  He locked eyes with Jack and began to patiently explained, “You want to, Jack.”

Jack laughed bitterly.  Of course he wanted to see Ianto.  He wanted to see Ianto alive and well.  But he also wanted Ianto as far away from the Master as was possible.  

“Why did you come here?  Walk right into my cell?  Ianto.  This is dangerous.  You need to be as far away from this place as you can be.  You can’t stop him.  The Doctor couldn’t.  Ianto, you don’t have a chance.  He’ll just use you…he’ll….” Jack couldn’t finish that sentence.  He had mourned Ianto when he found out he was dead.  Felt cut up by his death.  But he’d been thankful that he didn’t have to watch.  That Ianto had died quickly, without pain.  But now.  Now Ianto was here, and he didn’t stand a chance.

“I know.”  Ianto said, shocking Jack’s thoughts into silence.

“..then…Then why are you here?”  Jack asked.

“Because you need me.”  Ianto simply replied.

“I need you alive and well, so that if…WHEN the doctor gets us out of here, I can find you.”  Jack said.

“Is that really what you want?”  Ianto asked.

Jack paused, with the word yes on his lips.  Then shook his head no.

“I knew you, Jack.  I know what you really want.”  Ianto said smiling.

Jack was about to speak, when he heard Gwen’s cries again.  He looked at Ianto frantically, hoping against hope Ianto wouldn’t be seen.  

“Well, well…” The Master said as he looked into Jack’s cage.

Jack feared the Master had seen Ianto.

“Day 4.  This one is resilient.  But can she beat the Torchwood record of 12 days?”  The Master goaded.

“Leave her alone!”  Jack shouted.

“Not likely.  Not when I have something as fun as I  have planned for today!”    The Master took something out of his pocket…it was a small vial.

“Poison!”  The Master exclaimed.  “It won’t kill her, just cause her some pain.  And the best part?  I don’t have to do any of the work.  I can get some nasty paperwork done while I watch her writhe in agony for a few hours.  Doesn’t that sound fun?”

“No!”  Jack shouted as he watched the Master force Gwen’s mouth open and administer the poison to her.  The poison was quick acting, and in seconds, Gwen was screaming, collapsing to the ground in pain.  

“Gwen!”  Jack screamed, going to the ground himself, trying to get to her through the glass, even though he knew the futility of the movement.

“Jack.”  Jack turned to watch Ianto settle an arm on Jack’s shoulder, pulling Jack up to standing to face him.

“Help her!”  Jack cried.

Ianto just shook his head sadly.  

“Ianto, please, help…help her.”

Jack searched Ianto’s eyes realizing Ianto was just as trapped in this cage as he was.  He turned to where he could hear Gwen screaming in pain, her voice giving out a little.

But before he could turn to face her, Ianto turned him back to face him.

“Look away, Jack.  Look away.”  Ianto softly commanded.

Jack began to protest, but Ianto grabbed him by the back of the neck, forcing his gaze to stay on Ianto.  

“Shhh…” Ianto said, pulling Jack closer to him.

Jack burrowed his head into the space between Ianto’s neck and shoulders, and closed his eyes as Ianto held him tightly.  Jack let the sweet whispered welsh vowels Ianto was speaking drown out the screaming he could still barely hear.

They stayed like that even after the screaming stopped.


Fin.

OK, I didn't think I'd use this LJ for anything other than fanfic, but I think other people are getting sick of me posting five novels in response to their analysis on their livejournals, so I'll just use my own to discuss the Janto, and please, feel free to leave five novels in response to my opinion.

Basically, this is just to defend how the Jack/Ianto relationship is portrayed in Torchwood.  First, let me start by saying that Torchwood has all kinds of problems writing wise.  Especially the first season.  The first season is a mess.  There is no sense of humor in the first season and it relies heavily on sci fi B style movie tropes.  (imo)  But that being said, I actually don't think the Jack/ianto stuff has ever really been a problem.  It may not be what we want, but story wise, I really think it's mostly fine.

Let me start by addressing what I perceive to be "common" complaints.  (I really have no idea if these are common or not, it's just the ones I personally hear repeatedly.)

1) Not enough downtime with the Jack/Ianto relationship

2) Despite what the writers say, Janto is portrayed as a relationship that is mostly sex and little else with the exception of a few scenes that if you blink, you miss.

3) Jack is not seen as being able to commit to men, only women.  (this mostly comes from tencrush, who informed me that when they made this case, they didn't necessarily really agree with it, but all the same, I'm responding to it as though they did.)  http://tencrush.livejournal.com/95104.html  there's the link to tencrush's analysis.

4) The writers are not paying enough attention to the big picture when it comes to janto.

OK.  Now, my point is that the Janto actually fits in where the show needs it to fit in, and if there had been a lot of the things that fangirls would like to see, the show would've suffered.  Let me start by laying out how I perceive basic story telling, just so we're all on the same page.

1) Torchwood is a show about Torchwood.  What is Torchwood?  It's an institute that stops aliens.  What's the main conflict with this institute?  Well, we find that out it's problem in the very first episode is that it's detached.  This institute is detached from the world that it saves.

Which brings us to 1 theme of TW: What should be the relationship between a world saving institute and the world?  This is very similar to the theme in scrubs (if you've seen it) that is What should the doctor/patient relationship be?  How do you do your duty as a doctor, be compassionate, and still not go insane by becoming emotionally involved with the patient? 

Basically, the TW team needs to keep a certain amount of objectivity.  At the beginning of the show, we see that TW does a great job of that, but at the cost of compassion.  And this lack of compassion is due to the fact that the characters are all detached from the world they save.

So, basically, the main character of Torchwood is The Torchwood 3 Institute.

Which brings me to Gwen Cooper, who, much to the chagrin of anti-Gwen viewers and some janto fans, is the main female lead.  Jack is the male lead, Gwen is the female lead. 

Story wise: Gwen is more important than Ianto.  Sorry guys, but it's true.  She's the female lead.  Not Ianto. 

Why is Gwen so important?  Is it because she's so darn compassionate?  NO.  It's because she is the only character in the show who has a life OUTSIDE of Torchwood. 

That is what makes Gwen unique: She is ABLE to maintain an attachment to the world in which they save.  The very thing that TW has been missing.  It did not take Jack 100 years to find someone compassionate enough to take the cruelty out of TW 3, it took him 100 years to find someone who did not get so wrapped up in the TW world that they forgot about the world that they were saving.

Honestly, this is very similar (for those of you who've seen Buffy) to what Spike says makes Buffy so special as a slayer, why it is she's survived the longest.  Because she had a life outside slaying, she was attached to the world that she was saving.

Gwen is much the same.  This is reason 1 why Gwen/Rhys gets more screen time than Jack/Ianto.  Because the Gwen/Rhys relationship is what makes Gwen useful to Torchwood (even though Jack does seem to forget this) It's the relationship that allows her to have a life outside of TW.

This is also why the Jack/Gwen crush thing (as they clearly never did anything about whatever it was they felt for each other)  got a lot screen time early on.  It's conflict.  Not conflict between Jack/Gwen/Ianto, but Jack, as a symbol of the TW institute helps represent the allure of the job.  Gwen has a choice.  She can stay with Rhys and remain attached to the world while working at TW, or she can fall in love with the Institute like everyone else does.  Cause face it, if she gets involved with Jack, Torchwood will become her entire life.

As we've seen, though, Gwen is strong enough and chooses a life attached to the world.  Again, this is what makes her unique.

Now I'm going to pause her to comment that I am under no impression that the writers actually intended any of this.  In fact, I know they didn't because interviews with them often having them comment on how what makes Gwen special is her compassion.  HOWEVER, Even though this isn't what the writers intended (or maybe even didn't realize they did) it's what ended up playing out on screen. 

I mean, just look at what Gwen's official job is, she's the liason between TW and the police.  Even her official job is to connect TW to the outside world that they are saving. 

And as many, many writers will tell you (and other people who know these things) writers often don't realize what they are writing.  They write it, the subconscious kind of takes over, and they end up with something they may not even realize is there.

OK, moving on.  (because I swear i will be addressing the issues i put forth at the top of the entry.) 

So.  Basically, what we have so far is that Gwen and Jack are the male and female leads.  Gwen is unique because she's attached to the outside world, and that the Rhys/Gwen/Jack dynamic is necessary to the story overall because it is symbolic of Gwen having to choose between the world she saves daily and Torchwood.

Which brings me to why we don't see Jack/Ianto have more downtime.  The really simple answer is, we don't need to.  I mean, I'd enjoy it just as much as the next person, but it is rarely necessary to see.  As opposed to with Gwen, we see her and Rhys have downtime because it shows her attached to the real world. 

We also don't see Tosh or Owen have downtime with anyone in the same way we see Gwen have downtime with Rhys.  And if we do, we see it as often as we see Jack/Ianto have downtime.  Gwen/Rhys are the couple that gets shown the most in TW.  Period.  Because as I've said, the couple actually serve the plot more than any other coupling in TW.

We see Tosh and Owen only when it's needed for the story.  And all those "alien one episode stands"  (like Tosh/Mary, Tosh/Tommy, Owen/Diane)  are all needed for the plot of said episode.  I mean, Greeks bearing Gifts does not exist without the Tosh/Mary pairing.  Nor does To The Last Man.  It doesn't happen without Tosh/Tommy.  Exit Wounds doesn't happen without Owen/Diane  (he never would've opened the rift to get Jack if he hadn't lost Diane)  and Cyberwoman certainly doesn't happen without Ianto/Lisa, etc...

OK,  Now for the issue that probably gets the most discussed about Janto.  Does the show portray the relationship as mostly sex and little else? 

So, the big argument for this is that what we hear about Jack/Ianto are mostly throw away lines with references to kinky sex games.  We rarely ever see that they have anything beyond that.  We have KKBB Jack asking Ianto on a date and we have TTLM kiss scene between Jack and Ianto, and that's it, other than that all we hear about their relationship is sexual.

NOT TRUE.

I think that most viewers are forgetting all the times we do see them show affection and genuine care for each other.  The most common dismissal I've heard of these scenes are that they are only there if you're looking for them.

Well, yes.  in a way they are only there if you're looking for them.  But the show has told us to look by placing the more obvious scenes into certain episodes.  And for those of you who'd complain that if you miss those episodes, you miss it, wellyes.  It's a series.  Sometimes you need to see all the episodes to get certain things.  Shows do it all the time, and sometimes even with plot.  For an extreme example see shows such as Heroes and 24. 

So, when do we see this genuine care I speak of?  Well, we don't really see it in the fun fluffy fanfic way (shame)  but outside of KKBB date scene and TTLM kiss scene, we see it in Adam.  Remember adam?  (tw doesnt! hehe sorry couldn't resist)  I mean, Jack had "the best lie detector in the universe" telling him that Ianto had murdered and raped three women, and he didn't believe it.  That is called having faith in somebody.  It's also called trust.  And that whole bit when he first sees Ianto, and gives him that hug, calms him done, all that stuff, that is a man who cares about the other man.  In a more intense kind of way, but it does show that there is a component to their relationship that is not sexual.

We also see it in the Night Traveler's episode: From Out of the Rain.  That whole episode actually shows, in a very quiet way the janto dynamic.  What we see in that episode is the component of their relationship that is the "comfortable silence" component.  Not that it's ever talked about in that episode, but the WAY the two characters interact despite whatever it is they're talking about SHOWS us that there is genuine care between the two.

We also see that these two characters also have fun with each other, enjoy the witty banter if you will.  We see it in the first season immediately with the suit comment, and some other episodes, but we also see it in Sleeper with the good cop/bad cop "shivers down my spine"  bit. 

Now for Adrift, which takes us right back to the sex only component.  EXCEPT if you notice that it is made perfectly clear, clearer than clear, that Ianto knows about this secret hideaway Jack has.  Which let's us know that Jack tells Ianto things he doesnt tell ANYBODY else.

Also, in adrift we have that lovely line of Ianto's when gwen first brings up the missing person's of "I'll go talk to him".  And we get a few cuts of the two of them arguing.  That little scene lets the audience know that Ianto has a special ability to convince Jack of things the rest of the team doesn't.

Fragments is an origin thing and I wont get into that right now. I'll go into fragments as commented on I suppose.  Seeing as Fragments, you can make about ten different arguments for what that episode shows.  I think from a behind the scenes POV fragments is a result of a writer writing a "romantic comedy with a pterodactyl" and the director and actors of that episode realizing how f*cked up his romantic comedy made the relationship seem overall and all the implications of the circumstances under which Ianto got hired.  But like I said, Fragments is its own thing.

Which brings me to Exit Wounds.  The characters are very busy, so there aren't a lot of janto moments, but there are some lines of Ianto's such as "If we don't find him, I'll kill you...very slowly."  and what not.  and again, no ship in this episode is important.  this is a plot heavy episode.

So as far as I'm concerned, the program does show that jack and ianto have a deeper relationship beyond sex.  Is it obvious or shown as often as we might like?  No.  But is it necessary to show them more than the program does?  No.  I mean,yes, it can be subtle.  but I think you have to recognize that while Jack and Ianto do care for each other and are sleeping together, they aren't in what we would call a relationship.

Let me repeat that, Jack and Ianto aren't actually officially in a relationship.  All of S2 of TW as far as Janto is concerned, are these two characters figuring out how much they want to invest in each other, how much they can invest in each other, and where to go from there.  TW S2 is a negotiation of sorts between Jack and Ianto.  And as you can see throughout, they kind of come to a conclusion that they are together.

SPOILER? Mentions to DW Stolen Earth!!!!

And for those of you who've seen the stolen earth, there is a line suggesting that jack and ianto are monogamous with the exception that Jack is allowed to sleep with people if it's strictly business (i.e getting information needed for the improvement of TW)

SPOILER GONE AWAY

(just cause you've seen all of TW doesn't mean you've seen all of DW....)

anyways.

So yes, Jack and Ianto are not in a relationship.  And if they are, I'd describe it as an open relationship no one is taking advantage of. 

As far as Jack committing only to women and sleeping around with men, I really do disagree with that.  We see One singular instance of him committing to ANYBODY.  And that is his wife.  Who he met in the victorian era.  He couldn't have committed to a man if he wanted to.
Now, I know other women have been brought up.  Rose, Estelle,and possibly even Gwen.  But I would like to point out that Jack did not commit to any of these women.  He wasn't even necessarily in love with Rose.  Actually, there's nothing to suggest Rose was anything more than a friend.  And Estelle, well yes, they did make a vow.  But that didn't stick, really now did it?  And Jack certainly hasn't committed to Gwen.  He let her marry another man.  That is not what I call commitment.

I would also like to point out (again) that the relationships we hear about Jack having are almost all relationships he had AFTER he became immortal.  Which means are all relationships he had between the years of 1879 (69? can't remember the exact date Jack ended up teleporting to after the game station)  and 2000.  (i;m not gonna count the stuff after jack became in charge of TW 3 because that brings us to Ianto,and we don't hear about anyone in those 8 years so yeah) 

Now, out of those years, there are only about 10-15 years in which a homosexual relationship would've been acceptable.  So, even if he wanted to commit to a man, society would not have let him.  And Jack is trying to blend in.  And the guy will only live for so long, so he's not gonna pull a whole "i love you so much, damn society" thing because it really isn't worth it.  I mean, really.  Especially with someone as guarded as Jack, he just isn't the type.  Especially since TW was all just something for Jack to do while he waited for the Doctor.

Now, Jack's stories all being about men have been used as an argument for why it is he sounds like men are just sexual conquests or whatever.  I don't think this is the case. 

(tho, I do agree with tencrush when they say, "Jack's anecdotes are always about men. Old boyfriends, circus artists, whatever, they're always male. Now this is easily explained from a writing point of view, because it probably just stems from a politically correct fear of having Jack tell sexually tinged anecdotes about women. Let's face it, it would be pounced on like rape spray if he said he once had a girlfiend with tits the size of watermelons. It's probably just a PC thing.")

But, that aside, when Jack tells his stories about men, he has used words like "boyfriend".  Which suggests, that while they are sex stories, the sex was in the confines of a monogamous relationship.

Also, since Jack couldn't have had an official relationship with a man due to the confines of society after becoming immortal, so we hear mostly about his relationships with women during that time.  But do note, that any relationship we hear about Jack having had in his own time (the future) is almost always with a man.  And we meet Captain John Hart, who of course is a man.  Now, I know, jack is ashamed of John, but that really has to do with john being john.  And you also have to take into account the kind of shallow con man jack was before the doctor, and he possibly wasn't having terribly deep relationships with anybody, male or female.  as far as the omnisexual stuff goes (jack with aliens) i mean, i don't honestly expect to SEE that.  it's enough that he talks about it.  There are all kinds of practical production reasons that we never see the alien relationships.

As for the writers not paying enough attention to the big picture, the whole point of this entry is that the Writers ARE paying attention to the big picture.  the big picture is Torchwood, not janto.  unfortunately, the writers aren't looking at the combination of details when it comes to some of their relationships.  And it isn't just janto.  someone pointed out (sorry, i can't remember who, wish i could credit them, but it wasn't me!)  that owen and Gwen had an affair in S1 that doesnt even merit a mention when gwen marries rhys, the man whom she betrayed when she slept with owen.

Which actually brings me to the Episode 9, S2: Something Borrowed.

Now, something borrowed, being probably the most relationship driven ep (duh, it's a wedding) has the most complaints about janto, seeing as it s got a lot of gwack, and often cited as an example for how the writers aren't consistent with the gwack v. janto. and such.

First of all, I would like to point out that gwen/jack/ianto is what one might call a love triangle.  There is no consistency to be had.  the emotions are constantly changing. 

So,the love triangle bit.  I think things start making a lot more sense if you look at it from this perspective.  Jack wants both Ianto and Gwen.  he wants to have them both.  But he can't.  (I actually blame mostly gwen for that one, ianto is probably adverse to it, but i'm not actually convinced jack couldn't talk ianto into some kind of poly relationship with gwen.)

OK, so just so you know how I'm viewing relationships, I think that part of being in love with somebody is about how they make you feel about yourself, whether or not they help you become the person you want to be.

So, that being said, were the gwen/jack/ianto relationship is concerned, I think that Jack is "in love" with them both.  (i use the term in love loosely, jack isn't really in love with anyone as far as im concerned,but take however you want the term to mean mean)

Now, if you compare Jack to the doctor, gwen+ianto=one whole companion.

Jack loves Gwen because she represents a kind of normalcy that he can't have.  (remember all my ranting about her being a connection to the outside world?)  Jack really, really wants a life outside of TW.  And i think on some level, he believes that Gwen can give that to him.  He doesn't realize that Gwen needs Rhys to keep herself connected to the outside world.   (well on some level he gets that) 

Vs. Ianto

Being involved with Ianto for Jack is basically "marrying the job"  Ianto is TW as much as Jack is.  TW is really all Ianto has.  (that we know of...)  TW is all Jack has.

but Jack loves Ianto because Ianto makes him feel good.  Ianto is support on a stick.  He always stands by Jack and doesn't hold a grudge when jack kills his girlfriend.  (in my opinion, you can actually see in the episode cyberwoman ianto realizing that lisa being killed is the right thing to do.  ianto has complete trust in jack making the right, albeit tough decisions)  And jack loves ianto for the support he gives him, jack loves ianto because ianto constantly reminds jack that jack is a good person, and is doing the best he can.(unless jack is trying to kill his girlfriend, in which case, ianto was angry and doesn't really mean it...)

This is reassurance Jack totally needs.  When jack joined TW, he had to go back to being the conman he was before he met the doctor, and jack really doesn't want to be that guy again.

So, Gwen forces jack to be a better person  (in jack's opinion) much like the doctor did

And Ianto reassures Jack that he already IS that better person.

I mean, think about what Jack says to Gwen vs. what he says to Ianto when he comes back in KKBB.

to gwen:  what kept me going was "the thought of coming back home to you"  He sees Gwen as some to come HOME to.  You know, white picket fence, dogs, kids, etc... the opposite of TW, and the normalcy and connection to the world that i think Jack wants and that gwen represents for him.  (this is similar to how the doctor is obsessed with people living normal domestic lives.)

to Ianto:  "I've been thinking, after all this....dinner...movie"  So, Jack was thinking about a date with Ianto.  And here, I am assuming that by "i've been thinking" jack means during the year that wasn't.  so ianto is a person whom he wants to spend time with, is enjoyable company, someone to sit in comfortable silence with, someone to be there.

Now why Gwen and Ianto love jack is it's own thing, and for both, it's actually somewhat unclear.  they seem to love jack because he's jack, and who doesn't love jack?

So, Jack is "in love" with two people.  (this totally happens in life, as im sure most of you know all too well)  Gwen is one, Ianto is the other.  And since Jack can't have both, he has to give one up.  And he has to give Gwen up because Jack isn't what SHE needs.  So he gets Ianto.  This is by no means a "consolation" prize.   It's just he does lose someone he loves even if he gets to keep someone else he loves.


All of this, I think, is exemplified in Something Borrowed.


 Because the way I see it, Something Borrowed is really about making choices.

Something Borrowed is the RESOLUTION to this little gwen/jack/ianto love triangle.

Gwen chooses to be with Rhys, Jack chooses to let Gwen go, Jack chooses to be with Ianto, and Ianto chooses to be a bit more assertive when it comes to being with Jack.  (note the cough in the dancing scene.  This is the first time...i think...that we've ever seen ianto assert a kind of expected "right" to jack.  i use the term right very loosely.  by "right"  i mean, he expects Jack to be dancing with him not gwen.)

In the three episodes after something borrowed, we don't see any more gwack.  We do see them be sweet to each other, but they are close friends for goodness sake.  We don't see anything really shippy with gwen and jack after something borrowed.

Now, most of what I've typed up, i'm sure most of you have already thought of.  The complaint tends to be that none of this is really stated or talked about in the show, and that's the problem.

But it isn't.  To actually talk about this just "spells things out" and thus far it's lovely being as subtle as it is for starters.  And, if they did spend more time discussing this dynamic, it would totally take away from the focus of the show. 

Janto is not really helpful from a story telling perspective to spend a lot of time on. 


Of course, as we move into S3, the janto is becoming more important to the plot, i think.   So, hopefully we will see more of it.  But as far as the last two seasons/series go, more janto would've been nice for us janto fans, but would've been totally unnecessary for the TW plot.

Please leave your thoughts!!!

Thank you for actually making it this far!

-crazytook

OK, so the link function on LJ is hating me right now, but here is the URL, so you can copy and paste.  I'll keep trying to make the link work so life can be easier for you!  thanks for being so...is diligent the word I'm looking for, or persistent?

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4251743/1/Doesnt_That_Count_for_Anything_with_You

Here's the link to the story, feel free to leave comments here!

Link: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4251743/1/Doesnt_That_Count_for_Anything_with_You